MSNZ & TMC - 'Wheels start to come off'

[sollitt]

Actually GB, you're wrong. There may have been a couple of half hearted tossing of names in the hat but there hasn't been a single worthy effort at changing the guard for a very very long time.

As for "the system being weighted against change" ... also nonsense. The 'system' does not prevent nomination, lobbying, debate or freedom of choice and those who actually make the effort usually find the assembled delegates at conference very open to being persuaded.
Only those who don't make the effort are convinced otherwise.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by drftin

they're clowns because some idiot keeps throwing lawsuits at them costing all of us members money?
Or because the promotions for "teir 1" are being put out to tender to find the best option for everyone? (last year's lot have already had issues causing a split as far as i understand)

You may as well use my name 'driftin' although its debatable who the real idiot is in the context of this subject matter.

Until 2007, the California Penal Code Section 26 stated that "Idiots" were one of six types of people who are not capable of committing crimes. In 2007 the code was amended to read "persons who are mentally incapacitated."[12] In 2008, Iowa voters passed a measure replacing "idiot, or insane person" in the State's constitution with "person adjudged mentally incompetent."[13]

In several U.S. states, "idiots" do not have the right to vote:


MSNZ officers are not above the law of the land, although their actions in relation to V8 Supertourers, would suggest that they are either ignorant of the same or worse.

The Commerce Act is there for a reason, Chris Abbott and I have taken action against MSNZ because we believe they have breached the Commerce act.

If we allowed MSNZ to do what what we allege they knowingly did to undermine V8 Supertourers, we could then quite rightly be called "Idiots"

[CDM]

Originally Posted by socram

Of more concern was his statement that racing in NZ has been/is too cheap (sic)

Totally agree, but Tony has said that since day One in NZ.

Less than 120 drivers may well make an race meeting unviable, but it also depends on what the costs are doesn't it, I mean my local club can make money out of a meeting with that number of competitors.

But that's the difference though isn't it, I mean a small club might be happy to make $2k-$3k or event $5k from an event, but that might be chump change to someone who can charge that simply for a ride in his new $4.2 million dollar car that will sit in his museum...

[Goat Boy]

The remits that were put forward by Roger H and others to improve the fairness of the voting system have consistently been voted down by those whose interests are served by maintaining the status quo.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

You may as well use my name 'driftin' although its debatable who the real idiot is in the context of this subject matter.

Until 2007, the California Penal Code Section 26 stated that "Idiots" were one of six types of people who are not capable of committing crimes. In 2007 the code was amended to read "persons who are mentally incapacitated."[12] In 2008, Iowa voters passed a measure replacing "idiot, or insane person" in the State's constitution with "person adjudged mentally incompetent."[13]

In several U.S. states, "idiots" do not have the right to vote:


MSNZ officers are not above the law of the land, although their actions in relation to V8 Supertourers, would suggest that they are either ignorant of the same or worse.

The Commerce Act is there for a reason, Chris Abbott and I have taken action against MSNZ because we believe they have breached the Commerce act.

If we allowed MSNZ to do what what we allege they knowingly did to undermine V8 Supertourers, we could then quite rightly be called "Idiots"

Which is precisely why the clowns need to be removed from this particular circus. They've been behaving in a similar manner for years.

[drftin]

Mark, whether or not what MSNZ did was right or wrong i dont really care. In the end your actions only hurt us, the members, and motorsport in general.
Feel free to pick holes in that

Anyway, all i really wanted to say in that post was that MSNZ aren't just throwing up fees willy nilly, they're only passing on costs resulting from this.

[Goat Boy]

The individuals responsible should bear the costs for this personally - not hide behind the organization and hit the poor members again. It shows how arrogant they are.

[CDM]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

The individuals responsible should bear the costs for this personally - not hide behind the organization and hit the poor members again. It shows how arrogant they are.

Perhaps Jimmy should sue the people directly rather than the sport then!!

[Goat Boy]

Yes ideally but I suspect that if it were possible to have done that then it would have happened that way.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by socram

I wasn't concentrating 100%, but I thought he might have said that he might indeed try and round up a dozen of the 24....

Of more concern was his statement that racing in NZ has been/is too cheap (sic) and we already know that entrants' costs are spiralling. He didn't really answer Veitch's comment about the fact that increasing costs would surely reduce the chances of our successful youngsters getting a foot on the ladder.

He wasn't exactly complimentary about MSNZ and their lack of foresight, but most telling of all was his statement that 120 drivers at a meeting wasn't enough to be financially viable.

Totally agree with that and as stated on here many times before, tiny grids have killed many aspects of the sport. I'd add that is especially so with 1 or 2 make series.

He forecast the demise of Aussie V8s as a premier event before too long and naturally enough, pushed his own GT series - but that surely will only ever be a couple of races a year, as NZ is too small to support a full series of new, expensive GTs.

The increased costs are certainly going to hit the young but they are also going to hit the old and the Classic fraternity, even though several classic events have entry numbers exceeding 200 cars.

I have recently retired and two other long term drivers from our series have also decided to hang up their helmets. I think that just as tier 1 has shown signs of a revival, due in no small part to the work Chris Watson of HMC, that MSNZ have now put the promotion out to tender...

So, two steps forward with Tony Quinn getting HD finished and Tier 1 (or whatever you want to call it) having had the best year for ages, we get three steps backwards, with increased track/entry costs (to add to the MSNZ levy that doubled from $26 to $50, plus increased licence fees), HRC effectively kicked in the teeth and a Health and Safety levy.

It isn't looking so good, particularly for the north island racers.

What Ray has alluded to is a real concern for circuit competitors north of Taupo (approximately 60% of MSNZ licence holders?).

The three tracks that serve this area (Hampton Downs, Pukekohe and Taupo) are all commercially based tracks that have gone through recent structural changes that have/will result in significant escalation in track hire and related costs.

The result of this is that competitors will be faced with increased costs of participation and less opportunity to participate. Some will absorb this, some will reduce the extent of their activity and some will exit the sport completely.

From reading through MSNZ's forward planning documents, I don't believe they saw this coming as there is no specific plan to deal with what could be a marked drop off in activity from a majority segment of their licence holders.

Maybe this evolution is inevitable and the start of a shift in power from the sport's governing body to those who own and control the tracks.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by CDM

Perhaps Jimmy should sue the people directly rather than the sport then!!

Chris Dunn, if you want to use my middle name its James, and for your information we have taken legal action against both Brian Budd, and Martin Fine as individuals as well as MSNZ.

[Goat Boy]

There are one or two of us out there who would love to see those two pilloried...

[sollitt]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

The remits that were put forward by Roger H and others to improve the fairness of the voting system have consistently been voted down by those whose interests are served by maintaining the status quo.

As I've said GB, there are those of us who make change and there are those who make excuses.

[Bill Brown]

The wheels have been falling off since October 2007, they must be fairly well attached. Or perhaps the wheel nuts are tighter than anyone thought.

[Goat Boy]

I don't think the wheels are there any more, it is scraping along the ground...

[socram]

Originally Posted by sollitt

As I've said GB, there are those of us who make change and there are those who make excuses.

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas Bruce as you well know.

When the majority don't actually get a vote, the system is skewed.

There have been plenty of changes from those outside the hierarchy. We were probably the first to initiate signing on to approve the disclaimer instead of sending out reams of paperwork that had to be returned, resulting in a mountain of wasted paper.

We had on line entries via an email in force well before HRC commissioned the Motorsport entry website/system and eliminated those massively expensive and wasteful mail outs.

The requirement for overseas passport holders but Kiwi residents, not having to get a release from their country of birth, despite having held a NZ competition licence for 25 years, was also changed for the better.

There have been many other instances of positive change from those at the grassroots level without conference attendees having anything to do with it.

By the way, trying to even find out the date and location of the Annual Conference requires a fair bit of effort, as apart from last year when I had a personal email from MSNZ, I can't remember it being published on a regular basis or in any of the many MSNZ emails that we get.

If the HRC with hundreds of ACTIVE racing members gets just one vote, BMW with just under 200 only gets one vote - not to mention the 100's of other active drivers spread through relatively few clubs with an active involvement, are perennially outvoted by clubs with a smaller membership and possibly no active competitors, the result is a foregone conclusion.

The only reason we now have any Auckland representation at all at Executive level, was almost a fluke, even though that person is without doubt, one of the hardest working members of the motorsport scene, anywhere in the country.

As long as licence holding individuals are denied a vote, or votes are cast by the clubs regardless of the numbers they represent, the system will never be fair and positive change will be slow.

[Goat Boy]

Amen to that.

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

I don't think the wheels are there any more, it is scraping along the ground...

It's all those bloody road spikes that have done it!!

[Goat Boy]

And the sustained loss of traction...

[Southern Man]

I see the Organ Grinder has his Monkey out dancing again, must be close to the Annual Motorsport conference time.

[Goat Boy]

Where is it this year then?

[socram]

We licence holders and regular competitors who pay a club levy for each club to which we belong; an expensive race licence; a $50 levy at each race meeting plus our share of the permit fees, wouldn't really know.

As at today, I have no idea of venue or date and I think I have skimmed through all emails. Club Officials may know of course, but the rank and file wouldn't really have a clue.

[Racetroll]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Where is it this year then?

Hi GB,

Conference will be held in Wellington the weekend of 27 - 29 May.

Nominations for the board and for the commissions close at 5pm 13/04 (tomorrow).

Remits concerning the Constitution and the NSC need to be in the MSNZ office by 5pm 28/04

[Goat Boy]

Thanks Ray

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by socram

We licence holders and regular competitors who pay a club levy for each club to which we belong; an expensive race licence; a $50 levy at each race meeting plus our share of the permit fees, wouldn't really know.

As at today, I have no idea of venue or date and I think I have skimmed through all emails. Club Officials may know of course, but the rank and file wouldn't really have a clue.

http://www.motorsport.org.nz/

As a licence holder I am sure that you will have been advised of this website. It does contain quite a lot of information that comes in handy. If people spent as much time on there as they do on here they may become just a wee bit more informed about what is happening.

To be fair though, a lot of people chose to focus on social media for their info and of course that is not the official channel for information for any organisation, but it is a bloody good place to start a rumour.