Like 'em or loathe 'em...

[Ralf's Girl]

There are always some drivers who you either seem to love or hate (although I know some people have no particular favourite driver). But who are they, and what qualities in them as drivers (in the way they drive or the way they behave) make you love them or hate them?

For me, one of them is definitely Irvine. I have to laugh at his ability to shout his mouth off about anything whatsoever, but to me he is absolutely insufferable. The obvious thing I can put my finger on to explain what I really do not like about Irvine is the fact that a lot of the time, he's all mouth and no action. He could whinge for Britain about how awful his car is, but when it comes to doing the serious work, he can't seem to handle it.

Another driver I dislike is (you guessed it) TGF. Whilst I have a great deal of respect for his talent, I have never been able to buy all that, "Being with Ferrari is a challenge" stuff he tried to feed us in 1996. He informed us how he wouldn't be leaving Benetton in a hurry, but as soon as Jean Todt whipped his wallet out, he was off like a shot. Now call me a cynic, but that seems a tad greedy to me... And there is the obvious question of ethics as well. From what I have seen, TGF has proved on more than one occasion that he has no regard for other drivers, and he has shown us that he's not the cool, calm, collected driver he is so hyped up to be. When the pressure's really on, he loses it, as demonstrated at various times in his F1 career.

So which drivers are one of the 'extremes' for you? And what is it that makes them an 'extreme'?

[Quino]

Like you would turn down 20 million dollar that easily.
Plus, the remark that driving for Ferrari is something special is heard by more drivers other than M. Schumacher. Even by those who will never receive that privelege.

The point is that in case of M. Schumacher (and Senna for instance) his air of superiority (which is layed upon him bij the press as well as by his achievements) is generally mistaken for arrogance. His complete and incompromising dedication to the sport makes him go that extra mile, keeps him longer in the pitbox, trying to work out a killer setup, keeps him longer interpreting the details on the telemetrie-sheets in order to understand his car better then anyone else understands theirs.
Unfortunatly sometimes that uncompromised dedication finds its way to the track. It makes him tough but still not ruthless. The thing is, you can not say that any other driver wouldnt do such a thing to win a WC (im guessing youre hinting at Jerez 97 and Adelaide 94) simply because no one else has been in the position where in the last race (champion decider) of the season he has been threatend for his WC-winning position in the race by their opponent who then actually tries to overtake him. Thats the most ultimate act of war one can think of in F1. And such an act screams for the utmost defence. And the utmost defence demands taking risks. Risks in which yourself and your opponent are in danger of not finishing the race at all. Giving the circumstances the decision to take such risks are nothing but human. I think that theory is applyable for Adelaide, where Jerez looked more like a deliberate action. But still, it would be jumping the conclusions to state that something like that is typical for Schumacher and Schumacher only.

And as far as Ralf's is concerned, I keep reading insiders remarks that he far outpaces his legendbrother...where arrogance is concerned.

Drivers I loath>

Well, I never thought high of Damon Hill.
Too many mistakes, never in real head to head contention with any driver that did make history or is making it right now. Overrated. And to prove everyone wrong, I liked to see him struggle. He is a nice guy and all and very fast in an F1 car...as long as the track is empty and clear.
Jos Verstappen is also way down on my list. Thats because of his fans. I still cannot believe how anyone can state his 'unbelievable talent' when you only see mediocraty at work. Plus the guy's personality is kinda well...off.

Gotta love Jean Alesi though...

[Dino IV]

Extremes .. like or loathe .. love or hate .. drivers which stirred you emotionally either positively or negatively ... Alright, probably a long story, RG:

For the negative side I have never had very negative feelings. Well not continuously
I've had some .. ermm .. strong words flying across the room when i.e. in CART, Paul Tracy could behave like such a silly idiot and take someone out for no reason whatsoever or when Diniz, Ralf, TGF etc nearly crashed resp. Alesi, Herbert, Frentzen out of this life. But those where just moments of anger about unecessary stupidities. Or another example Adelaide 1994 when I couldn't believe my eyes when Damon actually braked and a few seconds later went for it and TGF closed the gap, I was a bit outraged at both of looking at such a stupid and an unsporty decision at the same time. Or when Prost took out Senna of Suzuka 1989 etc. Moments like that but it never resulted in any .. erm .. 'anti-fanship' or something like that. It just added more information to all the equations we form for ourselves about drivers and which makes some of them look bad or clumsy and others keen or cool or just simply nice.

For that matter there are some drivers which I wouldn't describe as my favs like nowadays Ralf, for being as exciting as a wheatbag and the most ugly and inconsistent driving style among all the current drivers, and his elder brother TGF, who's analytical approach to racing is so 'nerd'-like because it fully depends on the right mindset (which he has no discussion about that) but it's the exact opposite of the natural magicians where it's not the concious mind that races but some sort of subconcious state of mind where the carcontrol seems to flow all by itself from their reactions.

The latter is what I really admire about racecar drivers and some examples of those is who I admire most. For some of them you - and y'all probably recognize that - it seems as if you start to like them at first, probably overawed and impressed by their first outings, and that kinda grows in some sort of love. The stronger it grows you'll experience weird things like carcontrol always looking awesome (even when he has an absolute off-day) and the sound of that particular drivers car always sounding much better than the others etc. I tend to stay as rational as long as possible just analyzing around a bit - why, what, where, how? etc - but I got my few of 'loved ones' as well and probably like many others here have seen them all die in action ... events which shook your world, turned F1 into a disgusting Roman arena of bread and games but it always seduced you little by little back in ... until the next one was taken form the game and the whole process starts over again (see TimD's excellent thread 'Driver rather than the sport' as well btw). So here goes: my favs ...

Ayrton Senna
I started watching F1 in 1984, so Ayrton was as rookie as a driver as I was a follower. I kinda linked to his drives in that process and he stunned me over and over again. Every move was perfect, every corner was better than any other's. He was amazing for every inch he drove, so intense, so unreal, so often really unexplainable quick. He was the man that defined F1 for a decade. Really the non-plus-ultra among drivers. I loved him almost immediately. I understood his being probably because I have the same southern kinda temperament so I could attach to his moodswings like presenting Irv a blow and being very shy and thoughtful on the other hand. Godspeed.

Stefan Bellof
The movie should have been called 'The Talented mr. Bellof' and about racing. This man was probably equally gifted as Senna with that subconciousness massaive speed he wringed out of every piece of machinery. Whereas Senna had more acceptable bounderies of where things started to get scary (and even that was extremely far off) Bellof can probably be described as having no, absolutely no fear at all. I wouldn't want to call that simply bravery, gut or balls, but rather unlimited; the man had absolutely no limits whatsoever. One couldn't tell when he got out of the car because he was widely regarded as the most likeable bloke in the paddock, but the stuff this man, equipped with such massive natural talent and no restraints whatsoever, showed on the track in every series he drove in probably justifies more than enough to regard him the fastest racing driver ever. Incredible, really incredible stuff. I am still after a tape of the Nurburgring WC Sportscars race where he scorched the track in little over 6 minutes in this nasty bullet called Porsche 956. He wasn't reckless, but the more than 100% he demanden from machinery and track every time, all the time grew the notion that this guy was one of those who live to extremes and die young and nobody can do a thing about it. The way in which he died was the way in which he and only he could have left the arena: in his privateer Eurobrun 956 overtaking Jackie Ickx in the works Porsche 962 on the outside in ... Eau Rouge.

Ronnie Peterson
I was born on the second of July 1973, just one day after Superswede scored his first victory in F1. I have searched and searched all the stuff I could find about his career and have enjoyed every recorded lap of this amazing driver over and over again. He was sympathetic and friendly and probably the F1 driever witj the least technical know-how, and yet one of the most gifted drivers ever. He knew hardly anything about cars, he just knew how it behaved and reacted to the input of pedals and steering. And he was so blisteringly fast in the golden era of powerslides it was simply incredible. He knew nothing about the whole game, about landing the right seats, about set-ups, about testing, about all the dirty tricks he was as naive and pure as an earlyborn and he somehow managed to remain that way. He paid the prize for that, landing the wrong seats at the wrong time, but yet managed to amaze the crowds. He drove Colin to madness while recording a pole time, coming in, the team changing the set-up radically and recording the same laptime and shrugging his shoulders when asked if the car was any different. He was immaculate in many ways and I remember him as one of F1's dearest property.

As for the past-Senna timeframe, I have admiration for some very talented as well as sympathetic guys like Fisichella, Trulli and Montoya, probably because of the same southern temperament I can connect with. I like the rawness of Mika's among F1 drivers rare style of oversteer\late turn-in although it's rather ugly it looks cool; and I happily enjoy the great drives of the Makkinens, Hagas and Mullers in this world but 'love'? No not anymore, however Greg Moore was very close to that, but proved to me once more that, in my case, the heroes don't last forever unfortunately.

Cheers,

Dino

[SL]

Well, after reading though the above posts, wiping tears from eyes, I cannot hope to better the words.

My fav would be Jim Clark, seeing his smooth racing lines and quiet nature was amazing. In F1 or 3 wheel Lotus Cortina nibbling at the rear bumber of the Galaxie's.

Senna was another great. Plus many before him that I did not see in their prime. Surtees & Moss's drives at Goodwood show that their skill is still there.

Another perhaps untapped talent is our good ol'Tiff. never really found a suitable car but able to mix with the best when given a guest drive. My other curent 'good' guys are JV in winning Indy by doing 2 more laps than anyone else. Pedro de la Rosa, seems quite fast and good lad. Irvine, would love to se his little black book

Current detested drivers include Mansell for constant wingeing . TGF for pushing, shoving and veering. MH for well....Yawn.....Yawn.....Barichello for selling his soul to TGF.

It is also very sad that great drivers such as Bellof die without anyone realising their true talent, there are many many more. I won't try and list as it would only divert the thread into a what could have been.......RIP all of you.

Simon

[EERO]

Dino, I enjoyed your comments about Peterson. i had the benefit of watching him at Watkins Glen in 1973 (in what was one of the most thrilling races I have seen) beat a rookie privateer named James Hunt across the line by a seconds after race-long dice. It was thrilling and helped to ease the horror of Cevert's death the day before. I always liked Ronnie and found 1978 difficult as I was huge Andretti fan. That the season cost Peterson his life was unspeakably sad.

Steph, your two choices are the same as mine. Though I am uncomfortable saying that I "dislike" either, as I have never met them. I readily acknowledge Schumacher's brilliance at the wheel though I don't approve of all of his tactics. Irvine, quick at times, strikes me as a blowhard. Personally, I'd rather let the driving do the talking.

I really admired damon, I felt that he displayed great courage and perseverance and behaved like a gentleman. His final season did a lot of harm to the reputation of his character. He should have followed his instincts and bowed out gracefully.

Frentzen is my current fave in that I admire the way he has gotten down to business at Jordan following the debacle at Williams that nearly put him out to pasture. Interviews I have read display a wondergully dry wit and a charming manner. Last season, during the drivers' parade before the Canadian GP, Frentzen was beaming, looking honestly happy to be there and even at 50 feet the twinkle in his eye was evident. Some people have charisma, others don't. Schumacher has it, but it is of a different sort-Frentzen seems warm in comparison.

[Valve Bounce]

Hate and Loathe or very strong words, emotions and feelings. I have learnt in the last few years that such emotions only detracted from my own enjoyment of F1 races, and I learnt the phrase: "get over it" and started to enjoy F1 a whole lot more. So I now have many favourites and a few non favourites. No hates or loathes.

[Gerard]

I have the utmost respect for all drivers.
I do not hate any of them, hate is a very ugly word.
Hating someone I don't actually know is insulting my own intelligence.

And Quino, Jos Verstappen is way down on your list 'because of his fans?' You got to explain that one to me.
You also think Jos' personality is well...off.
I'm interested to hear how well you know Jos.

[Liz]

I don't think it's possible to love or hate people you don't actually know.

That said, I have always liked Prost, Mario Andretti, Gilles and Piquet (yes, he could be irritating, but I liked to watch him wind Mansell up!) And I shall never warm up to Didier Pironi, who is the TGF of his era but because of the lack of safety in those days he ended up dying for it.

Currently I share Eero's thoughts about Frenzy and I also like Trulli, Jean Alesi and Rubens; and I dislike Jacques and TGF.

[Mania]

I never liked Hill, Herbert and Coulthard. All three of these guys have one thing in common for sure - they`re all whiners. They complain and moan left, right and centre when it comes to everyone else but seem to forget their own words when they get on the track. Plus all three of them are over rated. Damon, though did himself a lot of good by retiring although it should`ve come a year earlier. Anyway, at least he got his wish and won the title the year Michael was in a inferior car.Villunerve is another one who's over rated as a driver in my opinion and has a big mouth. Canadians may love him but he`s nowhere near the driver or the person that his father was.

Michael Schumacher is my all time fav. He's the best driver probably in the history of F1, better than Senna in my book - his talent and ability are awesome and utterly depressing for the opposition. He's a cool, calm and ruthless customer on the track. Thats the way it should be. He does his talking on the track and goes home. Quite simply, he's a Champion.

Jean Alesi is another one. His talent and ability in the wet, in particular, is truly awesome. He's made some bad career moves which has cost him the chance to be a Champion but he`s still one of my favorite drivers on the grid.

Ralf Schumacher also makes the list. He`s talented and gifted although he lacks the ruthlessness of his brother but hopefully he'll catch on that he has to be more aggressive if he wants to win the title.

Mika Hakkinen - Mika may be cold, unemotional, blah blah blah. Who cares. He`s quick. He's a true sportsman. And he came back from a terrible crash to win 2 succesive titles. He won the titles on his own merit. And hes not a sore loser or a whiner like the likes of Coulthard, Villunerve, Herbert etc.

[Gt_R]

Quote: "Hate and Loathe or very strong...feelings....I now have many favourites and a few non favourites. No hates or loathes."

i agree...so all i feel now are likes for some, and dislike for others... =)

From the current grid...in order

LIKES:
1) MICHAEL SCHUMACHER: Whose the best in F1? MS MS MS!!! Liked him not only for his great talents, but also his smooth and great car control, abilities to race in very difficult races, VERY consistent and uncompromising performances, dedication to the job (more so than others), and among a list of other points, that he is driving for FERRARI!
2) MIKA HAKKINEN: Despite working for SickO Ron, i like him. Also very fast, but i like him more for his very gentlemanly style towards it.
3) Jean Alesi: Poor guy, should have deserved a lot better than what he already had. Excellent driver/racer. Spectacular and very silican!

Liked..but not as much as the above..
1) Jarno Trulli
2) Jenson Button
3) Oliver Panis

Dislike..
1) David Coulthard: On and Off, inconsistency, blames everyone but himself, overrated, underperforming in his superior Mclaren most of the time, whiner, and hypocritical. "Mr niceguy" my foot!
2) Jacques Villeneuve: I totally like him for his uncompromising attitude towards racing on the track, but he is quite a "attention seeker" by giving criticism that are uncalled for. Talks alot of things abt others (esp MS) when he himself is doing rather badly! Arrogant, eccentric, hypocritical...blah blah...
3) Eddie Irvine: FOR LOOKING DOWN ON TESTING DRIVERS...how dare him! sometimes, he just seem like not putting in the efforts at all~

NEUTRAL:
ALL THE REST~

[Valve Bounce]

This keeps cropping up in this forum that both Damon and Jacques are overated. Of course these opinions are from posters who don't like these drivers and usualy the same posters love TGF. Fine - they are all entitled to their opinion. Here is mine: Jacques was sensational in his first year in F1, and if it were not for mechanical problems, would have won the WDC that year, as I had tipped before that year in the Williams site run by "MOUSE".
As for Damon, he is the only driver I can think of who qualified on the front row of every single race in any one year. And if it was not for that dastardly deed by the Benneton driver in Adelaide, Damon would have been a double World Champion. I can understand when people say they don't like him, fair enough, but how can anyone say he is overated? Perhaps they prefered to look the other way when Damon did well. I don't know.

[Gt_R]

I think that Damon doesnt have that extreme born-talent for F1 in him. He was a produced F1 driver, through testings and stuffs. And that he got where he did mostly (not all, but most) due to the excellent Renault engine who is miles quicker than anyothers, and the brilliant chassis of the Williams. Remember, in 94, MS was in a vastly inferior car. Hardly any team could challenge the mightly Williams, and Damon should have won by the 4th last round of the season if he was THAT good. And in 96, Damon won because the again, Michael just switched to a struggling Ferrari, Jacques Villeneuve got lots of technical retirements, and the Benneton team was still mourning the loss of its great driver and was in chaos...

[Marshal]

Likes;

Gilles Villeneuve - My first hero
Alain Prost - So stylish
Johnny Herbert - Could have been one of the very best, but for his accident
JJ Lehto - Great talent, wrong place, wrong time
Jacques Villeneuve - A racer
Jenson Button - Really very good
Juan Pablo Montoya - My next hero?

Admired their driving, but..

Ayrton Senna - Brilliant, but I never warmed to him
Nigel Mansell - Brave and quick, but please don't talk
Micheal Schumacher - Best of the current generation. Needs to work on ethics

[Valve Bounce]

OK, I'll reverse the argument. You can argue that either Mika or TGF were in superior cars during the past two years, but neither were able to qualify on the front row for every race during anyone year. The inferior, testing and stuff bred Damon was able to do just that, something that all his detractors would like to ignore. and surprise, surprise, was able to put the Williams on the front row for every GP. Only a top driver can do that - not some overated fellow that many here suggest. You can argue that Damon dod well because the Williams was superior, or you can also look at it that the Williams looked so good because both Damon and Jacques were great drivers that year. When TGF qualifies on teh front row of every race, please, please remind me of this post!!

[Quino]

I stated that when the track was emty and clear Damon was probably one of the quickest, being well trained by Williams. But when some overtaking had to be done or he is as much as surrounded by other cars he was just, well, not that good. Qualifying on the front row during the whole of one single season is something nice to tell youre grandchildren about but in no way evidence that youre automatically a better driver then anyone he didnt achieve that feat.
And if 1994 would be his then 1994 would be have been decided on one single incident in 1 race among 16. And all in all you can say Damon and his Renault V10 were beaten.
1996 was all Williams, and still he was almost beaten by a rookie.

Gerard> yup because of his fans.
I find them extremely annoying in their complete lack of any knowledge or even true interest in Formula1. They cheer for JV because they share nationality, unable to look beyond that (Im referring to his Dutch fans obviously) and still have the nerve to -in all their absence of knowledge- call him one of the best in the field despite that the facts show insufferable mediocraty.
As far as his personality goes, thats something I pick up from the press. A nasty comment about foreigners, driver someone of the road in every day traffic, being involved in a fight and getting a suspended conviction for that, being a whiner and a bore low on IQpoints in interviews. No, I don't know the guy personally.

Is their anyone in here that calls M. Schumacher arrogant who does so out of their own personal experiences with him??

[RussianFriend]

I used to love or hate racers during my first years of following F1. For example I realy hated Jacques and sometimes TGF.

Damon Hill has won the first I've seen, so I couldn't help to support him.

But now I don't feel something like this. Every of them is personality with their own defects and advantages.

[Liz]

I rank Damon about midfield - he is not a natural talent but did extremely well with what he had, and with the burden of having to follow a father who was much better. He stayed around one year too long, but that happens.

Jacques had two good years and the rest of his career has been a matter of dyeing his hair and making sarcastic remarks about people who are wiping up the track with him. This is not so rare as it used to be, but is not attractive even so.

As for the above rant about the fans of Jos Verstappen, I hope the writer never goes to Monza. The sheer sea of unquestioning fanatics in red shirts with The Same Face on them will send him crying to the exits.

[Marshal]

Originally posted by Quino
I stated that when the track was emty and clear Damon was probably one of the quickest, being well trained by Williams. But when some overtaking had to be done or he is as much as surrounded by other cars he was just, well, not that good.

I'd have to agree with Quino, Damon, apart from appearing to be a nice bloke, ended up being a very good driver of racing cars, but he wasn't an outstanding racing driver.

[Quino]

No real analogy there Liz.

Now you are questioning the way someone shows his or here 'fanship'. I have no problem with that allthough I wouldnt state my fanship in such an outgoing and dramatic manner.

I also have nothing agains Verstappenfans who like to see him win even it is just because of their ahared nationality. It's called chauvinism and its broadly accepted. It's just that I can't stand the way in which they seem to be able to creat every little mishap or big mishap even into a great accomplishment for "Jos The Boss". The way in which the consequently show their narrow outlook on things everytime they mention dat Jos could be worldchampion in a McLaren or Ferrari thereby disregarding at least 12 of the other -more interesting but they'll never acknowledge that due to absence of shared nationality- drivers. Im surrounded by these folks since Im Dutch and I love F1. The one and only sollution to make these people go back to their little lives is having Jos to decide to quit due to lack of offers. And in order to speed that proces up, he must bomb as many times as possible. So thats why I want him to fail. If Jos is out of F1 so will at least 50% of the Dutch F1fans. Plus the so-so personality.

PS> Those Monza-fans at least have something to cheer about, haven't they?

[EERO]

I'm happy to say that I am a great fan of Damon Hill, I was a fan of his father as well. I readily acknowledge that he wasn't the most "gifted" driver on the grid, but he was quick enough. I also think he had a clear understanding of his talent in relation to that of Schumacher's. He was fortunate to drive for Williams, and fate had a hand in his advancement in F1. Had Mansell not been booted from Willliams in 1992; had Prost not retired after his Fourth WDC in '93 and had Senna not died at Imola; Hill never would have been challenging Schumacher at Adelaide at the end of the season. Perhaps for all the derision slung at him for being a mere "tester", may I point out that the Great Ronnie Peterson was lost trying to set up a car. Alesi for all his readily acknowledged talent, has never won more than one race. He lacks the ability to make a car work for him, but rather attempts to drive around its problems. In the same car, I wouldn't doubt that Alesi would beat Hill, handily. But please recall that prior to his death in 1994, Senna was having a miserable season in a difficult car. and had scored no points in the first two races. Hill, still relatively inexperienced, was thrust into the role of #1 on the top team in F1 and was forced to climb into a evil-handling car of suspect quality that had taken the life of the best driver in the world. Hill's quiet resolve and dignity are admirable in the face of all the weight dropped upon him.

If by the end of the season, and over the next three seasons as well, if the Williams was the best car, it is because Hill was instrumental in its development. The role of "tester" that you deride is just one more aspect of being an F1 driver, maybe it isn't glamourous or flashy, but I respect hard work a lot more than unrealized promise.

After Imola, Schumacher led Hill by 30 pts. to 7 pts.
The fact that Hill lost the title by one mere point is testimony to both his skill in races and testing.

Two more quick arguements in his defense: Hungary 1997, a brilliant drive in a poor car, (An Arrows!), a great pass of Schuey early in the race for the lead, and nursing an ailling car into second. It was brilliant and Masterful.

His win at Spa in 1998; not the best car, but quick enough, third in qualifying, a great start and a measured drive to a win that should have been Schumacher's. But TGF so clearly wanted to display his dominance that he made a foolish mistake. Whether you blame DC or Schumacher, Schuey as the trailing car about to lap the McLaren with a nearly 30 second lead could have exercised a little caution at that moment. Hill drove as fast as he needed to. And Won.

[Quino]

What do you mean by caution?
Schumacher didn't even make a planned move there.
Other than trying to avoid a McLaren slowing down on the race-line in very bad weather.

Plus, you use a lot of 'ifs' to determine Hill's abbility during the 94 season. His hunt for Schumacher was merely based on the fact that the German was banned for 2 and disqualified for another 2 races. Whether or not these bans and disqualifies were justified or not, it cost Schumacher 40 points. Only as far as Suzuka is concerned one could say that Hill beat Schumacher fair and square. And perhaps Adalaide if Hill showed some longterm thinking and took a little more caution . Season 1995 offers in that view a better, more balanced comparison between the 2, given the absence of the Green Table and the use of the same engine.

[Dino IV]

Quino in da house
I'd say it's about the same principle all around the globe. For you it's Jos and the occasional - whenever there's a Dutchie driving - 'fans'. I am sure there are a lot of the old tifosi who can't connect to the new masses as well.

This thread ain't about Damon, but the dislike some express towards him shows the wrong impression about their abilities some drivers tend to grow. He was a likable and very nice person for sure, but as far as his driving is concerned many mistake his sometimes clumsy behaviour for his whole being as a racing driver. He had many advantages in his style, with a really silky smooth style, very precise, very clean and rounded. For Prost fans that must have been a way to connect for sure. You can't say he was less talented because of that, he was just different .. and lucky to shine in an era which suited him. The way in which Damon got to grips with the dodgy Wiliams ('mighty' Gt_R??? Nevermind, I saw you also reckon TGF's style to be 'smooth' ) deserves respect in many ways as very few drivers could have made the progress he and the team got with that car. Todays cars are not his cup of tea so he had to stop a bit earlier as he was no i.e. Coulthard who had some similarities to Damon but still young enough to adapt to the new cars.

Nelson Piquet is a good call Liz. He was really gifted with awesome natural talents (as JPM now perhaps? ) and the way in which he got into F1 does make one wonder what's happening today with all the sponsored classroom-graduates across the globe. Cleaning the pit, carrying around tools long enough to get a chance to put in some laps and amaze everyone, get noticed, get his career moving, WDC after WDC and being an irritating big-mouthed party-animal ever since, now those were the stories heroes were made of ...

Oh well nevermind, back to today's fellows with their vegetable diets, carrot juices, press training and preset comments etc ...

[Quino]

You can say about M. Schumacher what you want but certainly not that he entertains a smooth driving style. And its true, Hill did. A clean, clear track and Hill was in a class of its own. Imola '96 for instance.

And I always had some extra interest in JJ Lehto. Finally a Fin who knows the word Fun. He did reached the podium in a Dallara at Imola in 1991, but if im not mistaken even Eric Vandepoele cruised at third place in his Forghieri designed Modena-Lamborghini before retiring 4 laps from the finish.

[EERO]

Originally posted by Quino
What do you mean by caution?
Schumacher didn't even make a planned move there.
Other than trying to avoid a McLaren slowing down on the race-line in very bad weather.

Plus, you use a lot of 'ifs' to determine Hill's abbility during the 94 season.

Read a little more carefully, Quino. The "ifs" don't determine Hills' ability, as you put it, they determine that fate determined he be there. However, no matter HOW he got that covetted seat at Williams, he worked to get the WDC and he earned it.

With regard to Schumacher's attempt to pass DC at Spa, diving into spray at full tilt knowing that Coulthard could not see him in his mirrors when he had the race in the bag is in my mind an absence of caution. I don't recall seeing Schumacher making any attempt to avoid DC's McLaren. It was no less foolish than Hill's attempt to dive inside Schumacher's stricken car at Adelaide at the end of '94.

In '94, of course the politics and disqualifications played a hand in determining the season's outcome. Schumacher clearly asserted himself as the preeminent driver in F1 following Senna's death. However, I don't think that he is the sole star of that tragic era.

[Quino]

Read a little more carefully, Quino. The "ifs" don't determine Hills' ability, as you put it, they determine that fate determined he be there. However, no matter HOW he got that covetted seat at Williams, he worked to get the WDC and he earned it.

And still don't see how he earned it when Schumacher was in 1994 a clearly better driver. God knows hard work doenst earn you titles in F1

With regard to Schumacher's attempt to pass DC at Spa, diving into spray at full tilt knowing that Coulthard could not see him in his mirrors when he had the race in the bag is in my mind an absence of caution. I don't recall seeing Schumacher making any attempt to avoid DC's McLaren.

As I recall it, Schumacher trailed the Mac at least for 1,5 lap, DC getting blue flags. Then DC pulled a full lift in order to let Schumacher get past. He did that in an unannounced manner however. Coulthard knew Schumacher was trailing and that he lapped faster then he was (blue flags) or at least he should have known (team information). Plus the fact that Coulthard made an active move to let Schumacher past (he lifted) tells us he was very aware of Schumachers presence. The force of impact tells us there was a big diffrence in speed between the two. Taken into account thats is very unlikely that Schumacher was suddenly driving much quicker at that point than he did in previous laps, you can not conclude other than that it's DC who takes the initiative here. Taken the place of action into consideration (there are better places at Spa to pull such a stunt), the circumstances (bad visabilty), the actual action (lifting while refusing to leave the raceline in an uncompromising manner like that aera of the track demanded) and to do all that unannounced is in my opinion enough to put all blame at DC's side. The only thing you can say about Schumacher at this time is, he was much faster than DC and simply didn't expect DC to make that action, unannounced, at part of the circuit in those circumstances.
Schumacher never made an overtaking attempt. The only thing you see him do is changing his line in order to avoid DC when it's all too late.

It was no less foolish than Hill's attempt to dive inside Schumacher's stricken car at Adelaide at the end of '94.

Big diffrence. In this case an overtaking attempt would be the ultimate act of war. An overtaking attempt for position is always an act of war. An attempt that could decide the championship then and there is the ultimate one. Surely Hill didnt expect Schumacher to give way. Schumacher on the other hand tried to lap DC and in my opinion those who are about to be lapped, make way, and do so as clear as possible. Lifting unannounced, on the race line, in bad visability, knowing the guy about to lap you is right behind is in no way acceptable behaviour. Surely Schumacher was well within his rights to expect DC to give way in a manner all backmarkers are obliged to (no coincidence that its practically always DC who complains about backmarker trouble)

In '94, of course the politics and disqualifications played a hand in determining the season's outcome. Schumacher clearly asserted himself as the preeminent driver in F1 following Senna's death. However, I don't think that he is the sole star of that tragic era.

What era would that be? 1994 thru 1997?