[Driver] Susie Wolff/women competing in motorsport (Merged)

[Lizardfolk]

Ok Mountainstar, there is two specific points I'd like to address...

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Despite the attempts of the feminist movement that in order for everything to be equal, women have to do exactly everything men do, I think nature always reasserts itself and even women are not interested in a feminized motorsport where no one touches and everything is fair and "after you Claudette". No one wants to watch sissys and wimps on track. I have known plenty of women fans and they all want gladiator combat on track.

What makes you think that a championship involving women will automatically make it "sissies and wimps on track"?

Originally Posted by mountainstar

That said, men need an escape from women and I don't think we need them taking over every aspect of our lives in every sport, in every club, hanging on us 24/7, nagging us, pestering us with petty emotional dramas and driving us nuts. We need a place were we can go to socialize with men and do men things. I can say if Chilibowl's world domination plan for women in motorsport comes into play were men are eradicated and women are 50% of motorsport series and clubs, I'll be finding something else to do.

It's weird to me that you'd ascribe motorsports as "men's time" when I'm not entirely sure the drivers themselves would see it that way across multiple series. I know I certainly don't watch racing to "get a break from women" and if I were to participate in racing in the future, it's not something I would associate with my gender.

Is racing tough, dirty, difficult? Sure. But really what makes racing so great is the game of racing rather than the pure brute strength of wrestling cars. There's a large aspect to racing that, I believe, is fairly gender neutral and that's the game and competition of the sport.

Women tend to be physically weaker and will have a harder time adjusting physically to the G-Forces. Sure. But to say that women aren't as competitive as men "because estrogen" or something like that is misinformed and not really educated in human psychology. A lot of women love playing games, a lot of women love competing. In a survey at my high school more women actually got into fist fights than men. Not sissy slapping fights either but all out brawls that drew blood (I personally witnessed one).

Also, ironically petty emotional drama is why I don't want NASCAR... so yeah... just gonna say that really stupid whiny *****y crap that we men automatically associate with women we've exerted our-self if we want to look hard enough

So I guess my point is, while there are a lot of women in this world who, upon entering motorsports, would make it a "sissyfest", to say that women as a generalized whole... would automatically turn into that as if it's some kind of scientific fact "based on nature" is a little backwards... no offense... I've never really attributed my love of racing, speed, and cars to my gender and personally I don't see why that HAS to be associated with me being a man. If I really wanted to get into something that would help that I would have gotten into Demolition Derby.

If racing becomes more of a women's thing? I don't care... I love speed. I love racing. I love the sport of racing above all. I couldn't care less about whether it "helps me be more of a man". I will be a fan of racing regardless if it's a man's thing or woman's thing because I don't need validation to prove that I'm a man.

[bella]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

One hard lesson I had to learn in the motorsport business is that it is ruthless, cutthroat and brutal and people are going to critique you in a 100 different ways and probably call you a bunch of names too. If you want to succeed you have to be able to separate out the constructive criticism and discard all the mind games, name calling and people trying to screw with your mind.

you know what's really telling?

if that was your perception of a women's sport or activity, then you'd be using words like "b!tchy", "catty" "full of handbags" and that sort of female orientated expression.

because it's a man's sport you're using "ruthless" and "brutal". language is a very interesting thing

and the macho perception is hilarious cause i don't know if you've met many single seater drivers nowadays in the "growing up" series, but they're 98% pansies who consult their physio over a slight graze to their elbow and who need their mums more than their mums need them.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I can say if Chilibowl's world domination plan for women in motorsport comes into play were men are eradicated and women are 50% of motorsport series and clubs, I'll be finding something else to do.

to be fair im looking at this from purely an economic perspective and i see how much sports leagues like the NFL are targeting women viewers and the amount of money they are making as a result.

the female demographic is increasingly becoming more valuable to all male dominated sports leagues around the world and not just in terms of finding more viewers ( i'll see if i can find a link but i think somewhere between 30-40% for the NFL now) but also seen with their attempts to support and develop separate female leagues of their own. F1, all motorsports really, can bridge that gap and truly be something unique in the market place and their is advantage in that.

like it or not business goes where the money is and in sports the money is where the audience is. dont need to change the world for that because thats the way it already is.

i also should add equality may be the domain of utopians or whatever but fundamentally equality is also the basis through which all sports competition happens. people want to see barriers broken and that is no where more true then with sports. agree to disagree but i feel in this we have a very different concept of what sports represents.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

to be fair im looking at this from purely an economic perspective and i see how much sports leagues like the NFL are targeting women viewers and the amount of money they are making as a result.

the female demographic is increasingly becoming more valuable to all male dominated sports leagues around the world and not just in terms of finding more viewers ( i'll see if i can find a link but i think somewhere between 30-40% for the NFL now) but also seen with their attempts to support and develop separate female leagues of their own. F1, all motorsports really, can bridge that gap and truly be something unique in the market place and their is advantage in that.

like it or not business goes where the money is and in sports the money is where the audience is. dont need to change the world for that because thats the way it already is.

i also should add equality may be the domain of utopians or whatever but fundamentally equality is also the basis through which all sports competition happens. people want to see barriers broken and that is no where more true then with sports. agree to disagree but i feel in this we have a very different concept of what sports represents.

Yes we do have a different concept of sports. Sports to me is about winning. I play to win and perform at the best level I can.

NFL does a lot of great marketing but you still don't see women playing football do you except for the Lingerie League or whatever it is called.

Same with pro soccer, pro rugby, pro baseball, pro basketball. They tried with the WNBA but after initial interest that has never really taken off.

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by Asa

Motorsport, along with horse racing, are the only sports where men and women compete together.

Chess. Equestrian.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bella

you know what's really telling?

if that was your perception of a women's sport or activity, then you'd be using words like "b!tchy", "catty" "full of handbags" and that sort of female orientated expression.

because it's a man's sport you're using "ruthless" and "brutal". language is a very interesting thing

and the macho perception is hilarious cause i don't know if you've met many single seater drivers nowadays in the "growing up" series, but they're 98% pansies who consult their physio over a slight graze to their elbow and who need their mums more than their mums need them.

All those pansies you speak of in those junior formula series, how many will really make it to the top? F1 is unforgiving. Mentally weak individuals don't make it and even the cashed to the gills ones can't survive for long.

I personally believe that single seater drivers are way too young these days and immature, but that is another story for another time. I think the world is screwed up if it thinks you have failed if you don't get to F1 by 20.

I think there is a big difference between ruthless/brutal and *****y/catty, as sports like rugby, football, motorsports, boxing are a bit different from tennis and golf. Not many women are competing in those blood sports, it's a whole different level.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Lizardfolk

What makes you think that a championship involving women will automatically make it "sissies and wimps on track"?

It's weird to me that you'd ascribe motorsports as "men's time" when I'm not entirely sure the drivers themselves would see it that way across multiple series. I know I certainly don't watch racing to "get a break from women" and if I were to participate in racing in the future, it's not something I would associate with my gender.

Is racing tough, dirty, difficult? Sure. But really what makes racing so great is the game of racing rather than the pure brute strength of wrestling cars. There's a large aspect to racing that, I believe, is fairly gender neutral and that's the game and competition of the sport.

Women tend to be physically weaker and will have a harder time adjusting physically to the G-Forces. Sure. But to say that women aren't as competitive as men "because estrogen" or something like that is misinformed and not really educated in human psychology. A lot of women love playing games, a lot of women love competing. In a survey at my high school more women actually got into fist fights than men. Not sissy slapping fights either but all out brawls that drew blood (I personally witnessed one).

Also, ironically petty emotional drama is why I don't want NASCAR... so yeah... just gonna say that really stupid whiny *****y crap that we men automatically associate with women we've exerted our-self if we want to look hard enough

So I guess my point is, while there are a lot of women in this world who, upon entering motorsports, would make it a "sissyfest", to say that women as a generalized whole... would automatically turn into that as if it's some kind of scientific fact "based on nature" is a little backwards... no offense... I've never really attributed my love of racing, speed, and cars to my gender and personally I don't see why that HAS to be associated with me being a man. If I really wanted to get into something that would help that I would have gotten into Demolition Derby.

If racing becomes more of a women's thing? I don't care... I love speed. I love racing. I love the sport of racing above all. I couldn't care less about whether it "helps me be more of a man". I will be a fan of racing regardless if it's a man's thing or woman's thing because I don't need validation to prove that I'm a man.

Are you speaking of championships that consist of all women? Because if there is such great concern about equality, inclusion and all that, segregation is a funny way to handle those concerns.

I like women race car drivers and I'm happy for them to compete, but I spare them no quarter and I would put them in a wall or off the track just as quick as any man.

No I do not think there is anything wrong with "men time" and having our space away from battleaxe wives, nagging mistresses and annoying girlfriends. We need time to socialize and enjoy life away from the Honey Do List. Motorsport is a great way to do it. I do not believe we need women all up in our business all the time. I'm a strong believer in compartmentalizing your life. You have a work life, home life, hobby life, online life, love life, whatever. When people start mixing all that up you end up with stress and problems. Young and dumb men think it's great idea to have women all up in their business but once they grow a brain they'll realize there is a reason why barns, sheds and garages exist.

Women are definitely competitive but that tends to be in interpersonal relationships, not sports. I don't really think that competitive side to them extends to motorsport. I have trained too many women drivers to count. What I find is women do really well on their own or racing the clock. Put other stimuli in there like other cars and their inherent lack of situational awareness takes over and it all goes to hell in a handbasket. Add in the strength issues and it's a strong challenge for a lot of women to overcome if they want to succeed. Not that it can't be done, but I think for most women it's a tough internal battle to put all the pieces together to be a winning championship driver.

If racing becomes a woman thing? I don't see it happening anytime soon. I also hear your comment "I don't need so and so to validate I'm a man/woman".

Actually I think people do need to validate their skills and abilities, their strengths and weaknesses and they do need to push themselves. It's partly why we have competitive sports. I think they need to validate their gender as well, unless they want to be an androgynous member of a 1980's pop band.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Yes we do have a different concept of sports. Sports to me is about winning. I play to win and perform at the best level I can.

NFL does a lot of great marketing but you still don't see women playing football do you except for the Lingerie League or whatever it is called.

Same with pro soccer, pro rugby, pro baseball, pro basketball. They tried with the WNBA but after initial interest that has never really taken off.

So what's your point? That female versions of sports can't be successful? Because there's plenty of examples that indicate otherwise.

And personally, I play to have fun.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

No I do not think there is anything wrong with "men time" and having our space away from battleaxe wives, nagging mistresses and annoying girlfriends. We need time to socialize and enjoy life away from the Honey Do List. Motorsport is a great way to do it. I do not believe we need women all up in our business all the time. I'm a strong believer in compartmentalizing your life. You have a work life, home life, hobby life, online life, love life, whatever. When people start mixing all that up you end up with stress and problems. Young and dumb men think it's great idea to have women all up in their business but once they grow a brain they'll realize there is a reason why barns, sheds and garages exist.

This strikes me as a fairly antiquated way to view women and female society. There's certainly need for variation in one's personal life but why does it have to be male only? There's plenty of women in the world that are very different from the ones that you or I love (and thank God for that) and I see no reason why them being a part of our social group is a bad thing.

[Paradise City]

Motorsport is masculine in character. It suits men not women as a general rule. Any attempt to create a women's series would probably wind up much like the old British F1 series after the initial novelty wore off. The main series would draw the cash leaving the women's series weak and certainly not the pinnacle and people want to see the pinnacle. Leaving aside America, F1 is the only motorsport series that global publics would recognise - everything else would be niche including women's F1.

[Asa]

Originally Posted by alan1302

On the idea of an F1 championship for women only - sounds an awful idea to me. Women don't have a disadvantage in F1 as they do in physical sports such as cycling so there is no need to have a seperate championship.

Here is your answer:

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Men and women are built differently by nature in their chemistry and physical makeup. Few women can match the physical strength and endurance of men. It's why you don't see women playing men's sports with men and few female race car drivers. They don't have the testosterone fuel to fight and do battle, nor the physical brute strength to match. If anyone thinks they do, lets combine men and women sports and put women's teams on a field with men's rugby teams and see what happens. Or women boxers with men boxers. Or women tennis players with men tennis players. Equality is a 2 way street.

I don't believe in all this stuff about men and women being equal like we are this androgynous, sexless species. We are different, always have been different and at least in our lives will remain different. Maybe equal under the law as people, but in other ways no. And I don't know why everyone wants to be the same anyways.

All this talk about women being equal to men in race car driving, I have not read/seen any scientific evidence that proves it and definitely nothing from the FIA. AFAIK they have never studied it scientifically to prove it one way or another.

In the Olympics, men and women don't even compete against each other in table tennis (except in mixed-doubles) or diving, which only requires a competitor to jump and then fall into a pool stylishly. Why is that then? I guess because it makes the organizers more money because they will have more categories to sell.

FIFA and UEFA have Womens' World Cup and Euro 13. They are racking in the money and the FIA is sitting there hoping to find a woman who can compete in F1. They have sat for 60 years and I expect in 2073 they will still be sitting there waiting while FIFA have all the women in the world take up soccer.

FIA is supposed to promote motorsport to all, but in fact all they do is sit there and wait for the stars to line up.

[Malfunction Junction]

If any of you clowns thinks a woman lacks the strength or willingness to push to their physical limitations, go and watch one giving birth.

The question is not one of ability, but of motivation. There have been plenty of women who have sought to compete, most have failed for the same reason most men fail.

That is all.

[Lizardfolk]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I like women race car drivers and I'm happy for them to compete, but I spare them no quarter and I would put them in a wall or off the track just as quick as any man.

Well you're not suppose to purposefully put a driver into a wall period... But addressing your point, I never advocated that you give a woman driver special treatment.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

No I do not think there is anything wrong with "men time" and having our space away from battleaxe wives, nagging mistresses and annoying girlfriends. We need time to socialize and enjoy life away from the Honey Do List. Motorsport is a great way to do it. I do not believe we need women all up in our business all the time. I'm a strong believer in compartmentalizing your life. You have a work life, home life, hobby life, online life, love life, whatever. When people start mixing all that up you end up with stress and problems. Young and dumb men think it's great idea to have women all up in their business but once they grow a brain they'll realize there is a reason why barns, sheds and garages exist.

Sure. Nowhere in my post did I advocate that women become 100% in every aspect of our lives. I'm not going to speak for everyone here but I will speak for myself when I say that I never considered motorsports "men time". I have separated myself from women before in my life because I do like being alone or away from women.

I've never considered motorsports one of those activities and I don't think motorsport has to be that kind of activity for everyone or even most men. I understand what you are saying when you say "sometimes we need to get away from women". What I'm trying to point out is that I'm not into motorsport for that reason and really I don't think I'm completely alone in that.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Women are definitely competitive but that tends to be in interpersonal relationships, not sports. I don't really think that competitive side to them extends to motorsport. I have trained too many women drivers to count. What I find is women do really well on their own or racing the clock. Put other stimuli in there like other cars and their inherent lack of situational awareness takes over and it all goes to hell in a handbasket. Add in the strength issues and it's a strong challenge for a lot of women to overcome if they want to succeed. Not that it can't be done, but I think for most women it's a tough internal battle to put all the pieces together to be a winning championship driver.

The issue I take with this statement is your idea that these features are inherent to women. Being tendency and being inherent are two very different things and I do think there are a large population of women who are more combative competitive rather than interpersonal relationships competitive but we men tend to ignore it because it's easier for us to see stereotypes in the women population than the smaller but definitely still very large population that don't fit these stereotypes at all.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

If racing becomes a woman thing? I don't see it happening anytime soon.

My point with that is, it if does (however unlikely) becomes a woman thing it wont diminish my love of motorsports and to tie that so severely to your gender identity is a little shallow in my honest opinion. I love the sport and I love the cars, I could care less about what society thinks of it or how I'm viewed loving it

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I also hear your comment "I don't need so and so to validate I'm a man/woman". Actually I think people do need to validate their skills and abilities, their strengths and weaknesses and they do need to push themselves. It's partly why we have competitive sports. I think they need to validate their gender as well, unless they want to be an androgynous member of a 1980's pop band.

A need to validate your abilities and your skills is very different than a need to validate your gender identity. First off... abilities and skills are something you actually personally develop, nurture, and grow for yourself. It's part of who you are because it's what you made yourself to be

Your gender is something you are born into. You've never had a choice in it and it's something that is, quite frankly, highly arbitrary. I'd rather not take excessive pride in aspects of my life that actually weren't in my control.

So no... I don't need to be reminded that I'm a man nor do I need to for that to be validated. Will my pride get hurt if someone beats the crap out of me or insults my manhood? Sure. I'm not saying that your gender should be irrelevant. But that is such a small part of who I am that my manhood being questioned wont really hurt me as a person. So again, I don't need to be reminded that I'm a man nor do I need to exclude women in my favorite hobbies just to feel like a man.

Motorsports is also a lot more than men just being men. Again, this is racing, not demolition derby (although certain aspects of motorsports feel like they should be demo derbies...*ahem*). And I'd like to think that I connect with it on a deeper level than one of the lowest common denominator of humanity. If you choose not to see it that way? Ok. But know that there are people (and I'm willing to bet this group is sizable) who do choose to identify with motorsport deeper than just their gender.

Speed is beautiful. Nothing masculine or feminine about that.

[Lizardfolk]

Originally Posted by Malfunction Junction

If any of you clowns thinks a woman lacks the strength or willingness to push to their physical limitations

Actually I have another example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKKfzR7dX-c

Michele Mouton runner up in 1982 in Group B to Walter Rohl and she only lost that champ in the final round due to a mechanical failure. Her father was also on his deathbed for cancer during that season...

Nerves of steel, emotionally tough, and Walter Rohl said in an interview that she was one of the toughest competitors he'd ever driven against.

I almost guarantee you that 99% of those posting in this forum right now will crap their pants at even the sound of a Group B monster. Michele won multiple times in that car against other hardened men competitors and she'd win the championship if her evolution Audi was more reliable (her Audi retired in the lead of the final round).

While women like Michele might not be the majority. I'm willing to bet there are a lot more women like Michele out there.

It's a shame motorsports fans forget about Michele so easily and quickly when she's easily one of the best examples of women out performing most of the men she drove against. And the likes of Rohl, Blomqvist, Toivonen, and Mikkola are not to be scoffed against.

[bella]

i think i said this earlier in this thread when michele mouton was raised the first time, but i think the numerous women who competed in the PROPER paris dakar in the 80s are a great example of how you can kick the whole gender stereotyping thing into touch. there was a documentary about the event on the bbc recently, that's well worth a watch if you can track it down.

there's a lot of us out there like michele who break the mould, absolutely. i list myself in that category, anyone who knows me will understand why. the problem is that it's so unappreciated and under-exploited (i mean "made the most of", not malicious exploitation) that many of us just lose the will to try and make something of it. for men, the door is open, you just have to recognise that you posess those skills and figure out how to exploit them to walk through it. for women, the door is closed and locked, and we have to break it down before we can even walk through it and start to reap the rewards because we don't have the key. contrary to what mountainstar says, breaking down that door is NOT part of ~life, it's *open* for men. why the hell shouldn't it be open for us too?

[50-SIX]

Originally Posted by bella

i see what you mean, but in the perception of joe average or the loudest bleaters, an average female driver is often average BECAUSE she's female. gender comes into it as a reason for her not being competitive.

I don't really agree on this point. I think possibly it works the other way round in that if a female driver achieves fairly respectable results, they get a disproportionate amount of hype and praise because they are doing reasonably well against male competitors.

Imagine if we had a women finishing in the top ten in GP2 regularly. There would be all kinds of hype about her being the next female F1 driver.

For the record, I dont believe Motorpsorts is 'Man time'. I think it's for anyone who loves to race or be involved in racing. I also believe that the only thing racers should be judged on is their results. Nothing more, nothing less.

I do believe that if we had a female driver come and blitz the field in the lower ranks, then they would have a damn site better chance of making F1 than a male driver doing the same, due to more media attention.

My point is when we get a female driver as fast or faster than their generation of competitors, I think their gender would help (rightly or wrongly) their progression rather than hinder it.

[bella]

Originally Posted by 50-SIX

I don't really agree on this point. I think possibly it works the other way round in that if a female driver achieves fairly respectable results, they get a disproportionate amount of hype and praise because they are doing reasonably well against male competitors.

Imagine if we had a women finishing in the top ten in GP2 regularly. There would be all kinds of hype about her being the next female F1 driver.

on the first paragraph, i think i agree with you but i still stand by my previous point. the reporting and perception is very polarised. either it's achieving despite being a woman, or it's hype because she's a woman. i've got mixed feelings about female press officers playing up the presence and results of female racers for example. i can see why it's important to support their presence and make sure that it's seen to be ok for women to compete, but i wish they'd just let them get on with it and treat them as just another racer. difficult balance.

on the second bit, it would be a very significant achievement. i'm not entirely sure it's possible to finish in the top ten in gp2 regularly as a man or a woman

[Greem]

This will only become a non-issue when a woman "doing a man thing" ceases to be the jaw-dropping, amazing, news-worthy thing that it seems to be.

Don't forget that the Western world, despite massive moves away from the attitudes that dominated back in the 1800s, is still a male-dominated environment. Nobody comments on the number of (for example) male CEOs of Wall Street listed companies but we *still* feel it necessary to point out in the boardroom that the person in the skirt suit with bumpy bits under the jacket is - shockingly! - a WOMAN IN A POSITION OF POWER.

When my mum comments on a photo of the team I was with at the British GP with "oh, there was a lady marshal on your team" then that pretty much sums up society's attitudes in a nutshell. And trust me, my mum is no caricature of the submissive stay-at-home female, so it took me a little by surprise.

It's going to take decades to move away from the stlll-dominant attitude that motorsport is a "man thing". Sadly, discussions like this one only serve to reinforce the stereotype - despite all the contrary views, we're still talking about the fact that one half of the population is under-represented in motorsport. People reading this will (mostly) take away from it what they already believe, rather than allowing their attitudes to be shaped by it.

That change can only come from our kids. As I said above, they're being shaped from the moment they arrive in the world by the media and the advertising that it's full of - hell, that motorsport is full of. Boys do loud, noisy, dirty stuff; girls do pink fluffy princesses with makeup. Yes, there are exceptions to both - but not many. And they are held up as examples, anointed as special ones, which just exacerbates the problem - "look at Little Ella who's switched from ponies to karts to take on the boys at their own game!"...

It's not a motorsport problem. It's a societal problem.

Good luck with fixing that, y'all.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bella

i think i said this earlier in this thread when michele mouton was raised the first time, but i think the numerous women who competed in the PROPER paris dakar in the 80s are a great example of how you can kick the whole gender stereotyping thing into touch. there was a documentary about the event on the bbc recently, that's well worth a watch if you can track it down.

there's a lot of us out there like michele who break the mould, absolutely. i list myself in that category, anyone who knows me will understand why. the problem is that it's so unappreciated and under-exploited (i mean "made the most of", not malicious exploitation) that many of us just lose the will to try and make something of it. for men, the door is open, you just have to recognise that you posess those skills and figure out how to exploit them to walk through it. for women, the door is closed and locked, and we have to break it down before we can even walk through it and start to reap the rewards because we don't have the key. contrary to what mountainstar says, breaking down that door is NOT part of ~life, it's *open* for men. why the hell shouldn't it be open for us too?

As I have made it clear earlier there is a small percentile of women that can be successful, but also remember that Mouton raced the clock, not other cars and as she herself admitted, she enjoyed racing the clock and had no interest in racing other cars on track.

I don't think men have the key either. Few moments in life will people just hand you stuff. We all have limitations we are born with and with hard work some of it can be overcome and developed, but there are some things we'll never do. We have to work with what we have and that's about all you can do.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Greem

It's going to take decades to move away from the stlll-dominant attitude that motorsport is a "man thing". Sadly, discussions like this one only serve to reinforce the stereotype - despite all the contrary views, we're still talking about the fact that one half of the population is under-represented in motorsport. People reading this will (mostly) take away from it what they already believe, rather than allowing their attitudes to be shaped by it.

That change can only come from our kids. As I said above, they're being shaped from the moment they arrive in the world by the media and the advertising that it's full of - hell, that motorsport is full of. Boys do loud, noisy, dirty stuff; girls do pink fluffy princesses with makeup. Yes, there are exceptions to both - but not many. And they are held up as examples, anointed as special ones, which just exacerbates the problem - "look at Little Ella who's switched from ponies to karts to take on the boys at their own game!"...

It's not a motorsport problem. It's a societal problem.

Good luck with fixing that, y'all.

To me it's a societal problem with people trying to force an androgynous society where the sexes meld and boys are now being forced to play with dolls and women with tool playsets. Let boys be boys and girls be girls.

Gender roles are getting warped to the point men are avoiding marriage and taking care of their children and women are trying to be dominate masculine bosses and end up wailing at 40 they can't find any good men and are childless and lonely.

I think motorsport is going to be a man thing for a long time. I do see some casual female fans but I see very few hardcore female motor racing fans. Nor do I see a huge interest from women in fiddling with cars in the garage or any interest in cars at all. There are some, but most of the women I see are either into it for watching the men do their thing or they are in the business to hook up with a connected motorsports team owner or driver, at which point they ditch their career.

So what I don't understand is why people say motorsport is under represented with women as though equal percentages of both sexes just HAVE to be involved in motorsport or it's some sort of big deal of inequality.

This desire to force people to be who they are not and follow things they just don't like is ridiculous. People are acting as though there are billions of women out there crying themselves to sleep every night because some invisible hand has kept them from watching F1. I don't think they watch F1 or any other motorsport because they have other interests and don't like cars.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I don't think they watch F1 or any other motorsport because they have other interests and don't like cars.

Go on, challenge yourself. Why?

[FastDB2s]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I don't think they watch F1 or any other motorsport because they have other interests and don't like cars.

There are plenty of women who can outdrive a great many men, like F1, like cars & can talk technical as any man. My other half was a great driver & she has competed in hillclimbs, sprints & circuit races with great success, beating a lot of men in the process, another is Gillian Goldsmith - nee Fortescue-Thomas - not F1 but very good drivers nonetheless.
Just a huge desire to succeed, skill, the right training (not entirely physical training) & money will eventually allow them to compete, remember some women only weigh half as much as much as man, even superfit ones.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by 50-SIX

I don't really agree on this point. I think possibly it works the other way round in that if a female driver achieves fairly respectable results, they get a disproportionate amount of hype and praise because they are doing reasonably well against male competitors.

Imagine if we had a women finishing in the top ten in GP2 regularly. There would be all kinds of hype about her being the next female F1 driver.

For the record, I dont believe Motorpsorts is 'Man time'. I think it's for anyone who loves to race or be involved in racing. I also believe that the only thing racers should be judged on is their results. Nothing more, nothing less.

I do believe that if we had a female driver come and blitz the field in the lower ranks, then they would have a damn site better chance of making F1 than a male driver doing the same, due to more media attention.

My point is when we get a female driver as fast or faster than their generation of competitors, I think their gender would help (rightly or wrongly) their progression rather than hinder it.

What you have touched upon is what is ultimately important to people: Results.

One can BS, bring tons of money to the table, be well connected with people, do puff piece docos on the BBC, etc. but ultimately you get measured by your results. Same as any job you get hired for.

If a woman comes out and performs and wins, it will be recognized for what it is.

On the opposite hand, if you get fluffed with all the PR blasts, documentaries, commercials and endorsements, editorials, etc and then they go out and under perform and do just about nothing on track, it's no wonder people groan and they end up not wanting to hear it.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by FastDB2s

There are plenty of women who can outdrive a great many men, like F1, like cars & can talk technical as any man. My other half was a great driver & she has competed in hillclimbs, sprints & circuit races with great success, beating a lot of men in the process, another is Gillian Goldsmith - nee Fortescue-Thomas - not F1 but very good drivers nonetheless.
Just a huge desire to succeed, skill, the right training (not entirely physical training) & money will eventually allow them to compete, remember some women only weigh half as much as much as man, even superfit ones.

OK, so that's 2.

I think you missed my point all along as I have never said there are no women who will never make it, just that statistically it's been a small percentage and still is to this day. And while the number might grow slightly I do not foresee the day when 50% of licence holders will be women.

[werner]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

To me it's a societal problem with people trying to force an androgynous society where the sexes meld and boys are now being forced to play with dolls and women with tool playsets.

But it is no problem when boys are forced to play with tool playsets and girls are forced to play with dolls?

To be honest, even if all children, boys or girls, are raised in exactly the same way, and young racers get the same opportunity's, I think that still the men in motorsports would outnumber the woman, because of the fact that on average they are biologically and mentally more fit to race cars. Motorracing, still requires some strenght and endurance, and eye-hand coordination and some visual capabilities that are usefull are found more often in men. And a nice dose of testosteron also helps to overtake your archrival in that tricky corner where the gardrail is placed a bit to close to the track for comfort. However, I think the numbers would be closer than they are now especially in the lower leagues.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

To me it's a societal problem with people trying to force an androgynous society where the sexes meld and boys are now being forced to play with dolls and women with tool playsets. Let boys be boys and girls be girls.

Gender roles are getting warped to the point men are avoiding marriage and taking care of their children and women are trying to be dominate masculine bosses and end up wailing at 40 they can't find any good men and are childless and lonely.

What you mean is "Let boys be just like me and Dad and let girls be the same as my Mum and sister"

I despair, which is why I'm not going to contribute to this thread anymore other than to say I hope Ms. Wolff gets a test next week and if she progresses further good luck to her.