Beer & Brats vs Wine & Cheese

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

When was the last time motorsports even touched stick and ball as far as ratings? the U of Tennessee athletic department probably makes more money than IndyCar and ALMS combined, and that's when the money maker(football) hasn't won a championship in 12 years.

O dear Gad...there is a "Volunteer" amongst us. Nothing sucks like a big orange.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

In this country, NASCAR and the Indy 500 still now even though both have declined.

A weekend of NFL games vs. one Nascar race is not even close. NFL has 10 times as many viewers. MNF typically has twice as many viewers as a normal Nascar race.

[broadrun96]

I think the problem lies with the history of sportscar racing, many of us think the classic era of drive to the track, race and then drive home is the anchor of our sport. A lot of teams, like Intersport, are run like that; they have under 5 paid team members and a bunch of friends that come with and help because they LOVE being at the track. Teams like Audi and Pug, and even Highcroft, are new things to sportscar and it will take away for the sport to figure out where professional long-term teams like those in NASCAR and now F1 fit in. Wasn't it just a short time ago the garagistas were the admired little teams in F1 that fought and hung on with a lot less resources and have since been left behind. The little guys like Interport could fight for podiums even 5 years ago but are slowly getting left behind and it's a REALLY bad time to ask for cash when most companies are saving it or spending it to merge or buy into other companies. If there were more companies like Patron where an exec could go have some fun on the track and be able to present the benefits of sponsorship.
With ESPN moving back to NASCAR because of their falling ratings and reduced costs, we've lost a spot to move up like NASCAR had managed in the early/mid 90s. And sorry but this season is done now, football starts in 4 weeks so weekends are pretty much OVER for coverage on any US sports network or nightly news. Having PLM end the season as the biggest event is great but even NASCAR has a hard time selling the end of their season to sports fans. As I'm sure any southeastern college football fan can tell you, there's a LOT of crossover between the wine and cheese crowds at ALMS events and many of the SEC/ACC football games in the fall.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

In this country, NASCAR and the Indy 500 still now even though both have declined.

Hahaha!!! A preseason football game draws 3 times the Indy 500 I haven't got Daytona ratings, but they won't touch an NFL or NBA game.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

O dear Gad...there is a "Volunteer" amongst us. Nothing sucks like a big orange.

Them's fightin words.


I take it you're a Bulldawg? How's camp lookin?

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I think the problem lies with the history of sportscar racing, many of us think the classic era of drive to the track, race and then drive home is the anchor of our sport. A lot of teams, like Intersport, are run like that; they have under 5 paid team members and a bunch of friends that come with and help because they LOVE being at the track. Teams like Audi and Pug, and even Highcroft, are new things to sportscar and it will take away for the sport to figure out where professional long-term teams like those in NASCAR and now F1 fit in. Wasn't it just a short time ago the garagistas were the admired little teams in F1 that fought and hung on with a lot less resources and have since been left behind. The little guys like Interport could fight for podiums even 5 years ago but are slowly getting left behind and it's a REALLY bad time to ask for cash when most companies are saving it or spending it to merge or buy into other companies. If there were more companies like Patron where an exec could go have some fun on the track and be able to present the benefits of sponsorship.
With ESPN moving back to NASCAR because of their falling ratings and reduced costs, we've lost a spot to move up like NASCAR had managed in the early/mid 90s. And sorry but this season is done now, football starts in 4 weeks so weekends are pretty much OVER for coverage on any US sports network or nightly news. Having PLM end the season as the biggest event is great but even NASCAR has a hard time selling the end of their season to sports fans. As I'm sure any southeastern college football fan can tell you, there's a LOT of crossover between the wine and cheese crowds at ALMS events and many of the SEC/ACC football games in the fall.

There's also plenty of beer and brat crossover as well.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Hahaha!!! A preseason football game draws 3 times the Indy 500 I haven't got Daytona ratings, but they won't touch an NFL or NBA game.

According to the figures I've seen, Indianapolis had 300,000 in attendance this year while Daytona had around 185,000. I'd like to know what preseason football game gets three times that attendance. If you're talking about TV ratings, no one in any city besides the ones the teams are from cares about a preseason game (and most of the time even their own fans don't care) so there are basically 0 viewers there while both Indy and Daytona get a national audience.

DK

[Bob Riebe]

There is no analogy between league and automobile racing.
League sports have a dozen to dozens of games a year and many repeat at the same locati

Outside of short track racing, there are rarely more than one or two races a year at any track from one sanction.
If there are no tracks there are no races.
If there are not enough fans in the stands there are no races tracks.
TV does not mean jack-**** to race track owners and those who promote those races at the race track, so all this babble about TV is pointless concering the survival of the IMSA.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by dxk1

According to the figures I've seen, Indianapolis had 300,000 in attendance this year while Daytona had around 185,000. I'd like to know what preseason football game gets three times that attendance. If you're talking about TV ratings, no one in any city besides the ones the teams are from cares about a preseason game (and most of the time even their own fans don't care) so there are basically 0 viewers there while both Indy and Daytona get a national audience.

DK

Then tell me why the HOF game got a 7.6. A 7.6! That's postseason ratings!

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

There is no analogy between league and automobile racing.
League sports have a dozen to dozens of games a year and many repeat at the same locati

Outside of short track racing, there are rarely more than one or two races a year at any track from one sanction.
If there are no tracks there are no races.
If there are not enough fans in the stands there are no races tracks.
TV does not mean jack-**** to race track owners and those who promote those races at the race track, so all this babble about TV is pointless concering the survival of the IMSA.

It's the catalyst to everything. No TV, less sponsors, less sponsors, less money. I hope I don't have to go any further.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

It's the catalyst to everything. No TV, less sponsors, less sponsors, less money. I hope I don't have to go any further.

No one attends the races, no races.
Champcar found that out the hard way at Road America, when Road America told them don't call us, we don't want you.
If tracks cannot make money, they will not hold races, TV, as I said means bs to the tracks without which there is no series to sell to TV.
TV is only important to those whose who sit at home and pay nothing to watch the race.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

No one attends the races, no races.
Champcar found that out the hard way at Road America, when Road America told them don't call us, we don't want you.
If tracks cannot make money, they will not hold races, TV, as I said means bs to the tracks without which there is no series to sell to TV.
TV is only important to those whose who sit at home and pay nothing to watch the race.

Tell that to Grand Am, empty stands, full season TV coverage. Of course mostly with tracks that are allies to NASCAR or ISC owned but that's the reality over there.

If Indy Car can run at Barber that's about money not loyalties. Which is why Watkins Glen has a real chance of happening despite the conspiracy theorist and as I said in the other thread a second ago, if you have 40-45-50 car grids next season, you already had problems at Lime Rock and complaints what are you going do with that many cars at Lime Rock? It won't happen that's what so where you going to go in the Northeast?

Watkins Glen...

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Then tell me why the HOF game got a 7.6. A 7.6! That's postseason ratings!

Indy's TV rating was pathetic this year, around 3.7 or so but Daytona was around 7.8. Also nothing to write home about. However, neither of these was 3x lower than 7.6 as stated in your earlier quote. Don't forger the HOF game had Dallas, America's team. Everyone knows that auto racing is a niche sport and no where as popular as football. But don't make it out to be worse than it is.

DK

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by dxk1

Indy's TV rating was pathetic this year, around 3.7 or so but Daytona was around 7.8. Also nothing to write home about. However, neither of these was 3x lower than 7.6 as stated in your earlier quote. Don't forger the HOF game had Dallas, America's team. Everyone knows that auto racing is a niche sport and no where as popular as football. But don't make it out to be worse than it is.

DK

Correct, NASCAR's answer to slumping ratings when Football Season starts was The Chase, let's not fool ourselves. Football fans that are also NASCAR fans tune out in LARGE numbers during the NFL season. Most NASCAR races start at Noon or 1pm eastern time, that's right when the 1pm NFL game starts, which do you wanna watch especially if Jimmy Johnson is putting on another dominating performance?

This is why Dual Tuner DVR's and Media Center PC's are popular. Record the race, watch the game, that's what usually happens.

But that's only if the race which will be on ESPN and your NFL game is not on Sunday Ticket but on OTA TV. Otherwise you'll get a conflict flag on your DVR.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

But that's only if the race which will be on ESPN and your NFL game is not on Sunday Ticket but on OTA TV. Otherwise you'll get a conflict flag on your DVR.

Then you need a new DVR, with Uverse I can pull in 3 recordings with a free channel to surf and even with Comcast I could record 2 HD feeds and watch a basic cable (non-digital) channel at the same time.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

No one attends the races, no races.
Champcar found that out the hard way at Road America, when Road America told them don't call us, we don't want you.
If tracks cannot make money, they will not hold races, TV, as I said means bs to the tracks without which there is no series to sell to TV.
TV is only important to those whose who sit at home and pay nothing to watch the race.

One more time, Bob. Teams stay in racing by selling sponsorships. Sponsors need to be seen, not by railbirds they are flying by, but by hundreds of thousands - hopefully millions. Otherwise no money.

No sport can survive as anything more than an amateur club event without television exposure.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Then you need a new DVR, with Uverse I can pull in 3 recordings with a free channel to surf and even with Comcast I could record 2 HD feeds and watch a basic cable (non-digital) channel at the same time.

I don't have a DVR, how many times do I have to say I have a Media Center PC?

I get conflict flags I tend to forget NASCAR and watch NFL only.

Besides if I was crazy I could get TWC and then get the Ceton Cablecard tuner that just started shipping. I'll see your 3 streams of recording and raise you to 4 -



Do a reg hack install another one and have 8 streams to record, what Conflicts?

You can still install 4 OTA-HD tuners too.

Try that with your DVR.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

A weekend of NFL games vs. one Nascar race is not even close. NFL has 10 times as many viewers. MNF typically has twice as many viewers as a normal Nascar race.

He said stick and ball, that also includes baseball, basketball, and hockey. If you compare ratings for an individual race to an individual game broadcast nationally from any of those 3 sports, NASCAR and Indianapolis do quite well. And yes, part of the reason for that is because you only have 2 out of the 30 teams competing in the baseball game while every star in NASCAR competes at the same time, but it's not like advertisers or the networks care about that. ESPN doesn't sit and justify a mediocre rating for a Brewers-Dodgers game by saying "well, all the Yankees fans were watching the YES Network".

NASCAR and Indy can't touch Monday Night Football or Sunday Night Football, but little in American sports can.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by TWK

No sport can survive as anything more than an amateur club event without television exposure.

Sports must have been so much more fun before the 1980s.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Hahaha!!! A preseason football game draws 3 times the Indy 500 I haven't got Daytona ratings, but they won't touch an NFL or NBA game.

You said "stick and ball". You didn't say "football only".

Daytona 500: 7.7 rating/16 share - 13.3 million viewers

http://jayski.com/pages/tvratings2010.htm

NASCAR for the season skimming through Jayski's list is averaging in the 4s I'd guess.

Indianapolis 500: 3.68 rating - 5.8 million viewers

http://www.ibj.com/the-score/2010/06...AMS/post/20274

From Wikipedia article on NBA Nielsen ratings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...ielsen_ratings

ABC's regular season NBA television ratings have routinely finished between a 2.0 and a 2.5 ratings score. While these ratings compare favorably to the NHL's Stanley Cup Finals, it is extremely low by NBA standards. Thirty-nine (or just over a third of) NBA games on ABC have registered a 2.1 or lower rating.

They do great in the Finals, this past time they got an 10.6. But you said "touch stick and ball", and by my definition a random race getting double the rating of a random basketball game counts as touching and going past. Baseball in ratings is pretty similar to the NBA, and unless we're in Canada where it's far and away #1, I wouldn't mention hockey if I were you.


So you've been proven wrong with actual data. Anyone else have any logical fallacies they want to be cleaned up on?

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

He said stick and ball, that also includes baseball, basketball, and hockey. If you compare ratings for an individual race to an individual game broadcast nationally from any of those 3 sports, NASCAR and Indianapolis do quite well. And yes, part of the reason for that is because you only have 2 out of the 30 teams competing in the baseball game while every star in NASCAR competes at the same time, but it's not like advertisers or the networks care about that. ESPN doesn't sit and justify a mediocre rating for a Brewers-Dodgers game by saying "well, all the Yankees fans were watching the YES Network".

NASCAR and Indy can't touch Monday Night Football or Sunday Night Football, but little in American sports can.

Semantics. I picked one of the most popular sports. My point is that you can't compare a single race of any type to a single baseball, basketball, hockey, football game. ESPN may not look at it that way, but MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL do. That's why they show these sports regionally. I watch ACC football on ABC. Most of the time I see either GT or FSU play. What are you watching? UNC, NC State, VaTech, etc. We're both watching ACC football and those numbers are what the television contracts are based on. From that standpoint all of the stick and ball, ball and hoop, foot and net, ice and grass sports crush motorsport.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Semantics. I picked one of the most popular sports. My point is that you can't compare a single race of any type to a single baseball, basketball, hockey, football game. ESPN may not look at it that way, but MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL do. That's why they show these sports regionally. I watch ACC football on ABC. Most of the time I see either GT or FSU play. What are you watching? UNC, NC State, VaTech, etc. We're both watching ACC football and those numbers are what the television contracts are based on. From that standpoint all of the stick and ball, ball and hoop, foot and net, ice and grass sports crush motorsport.

We're solely talking television ratings, that was the impetus of ptclaus' post that I responded to and provided data to prove him wrong.

ptclaus: When was the last time motorsports even touched stick and ball as far as ratings?

Races are broadcast nationally so you have to look at the ratings for the games in those sports broadcast nationally to compare. You can take a nationally-televised regular-season NBA game on ABC and it gets a 2.3 compared to a nationally-televised NASCAR race on Fox getting a 4.3.

You can look at an individual market and compare a race's ranking to what the local team did. But what's more important, getting a 4.3 nationally or the Buffalo Sabres getting a 6 in Upstate New York but a 0.1 over the rest of the country if that from a few people having NHL Center Ice? The race would have far more viewers.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by TWK

One more time, Bob. Teams stay in racing by selling sponsorships. Sponsors need to be seen, not by railbirds they are flying by, but by hundreds of thousands - hopefully millions. Otherwise no money.

No sport can survive as anything more than an amateur club event without television exposure.

Gee, so Audi, Porsche and Peugeot , built those cars because of TV-

As I said no fans, no race tracks, no races, TV is irrelevant, or maybe we can meet at Road America some time and you can tell the track owners how important TV is to them.
TV only came to racing because it was big and TV wanted to be a part of it, NOT the other way around.

As to stick and ball, no fans in the stands, no team, it leaves or it dissolved, ask Montreal.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

You said "stick and ball". You didn't say "football only".

Daytona 500: 7.7 rating/16 share - 13.3 million viewers

http://jayski.com/pages/tvratings2010.htm

NASCAR for the season skimming through Jayski's list is averaging in the 4s I'd guess.

Indianapolis 500: 3.68 rating - 5.8 million viewers

http://www.ibj.com/the-score/2010/06...AMS/post/20274

From Wikipedia article on NBA Nielsen ratings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...ielsen_ratings



They do great in the Finals, this past time they got an 10.6. But you said "touch stick and ball", and by my definition a random race getting double the rating of a random basketball game counts as touching and going past. Baseball in ratings is pretty similar to the NBA, and unless we're in Canada where it's far and away #1, I wouldn't mention hockey if I were you.


So you've been proven wrong with actual data. Anyone else have any logical fallacies they want to be cleaned up on?

You heard it here folks, the Indy 500 and Daytona 500 are random races. You gotta be kidding me. NASCAR is the only thing that can touch stick and ball because it's adopted stick and ball philosophy. I bet all of you would love it if all then ALMS races took place in rovals, and they added a postseason.


Colin Cowherd made a great point yesterday(and incredibly relevant to this convo I might add.) The average American sports fan does not like nuance. They don't want to have to figure out why such and such is exciting. Expanding on that point, a guy on another forum made a great point. You can't see the expression on a driver's face when he goes through the Corkscrew, or the Kink, or down the final corner at Road Atlanta. Drivers, to the outside viewer, are faceless, and because you can't see the expression when they're on it, to the untrained eye, it looks as if anyone could do it. There's too many nuances, especially(!!!) in sportscar racing.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Gee, so Audi, Porsche and Peugeot , built those cars because of TV-

As I said no fans, no race tracks, no races, TV is irrelevant, or maybe we can meet at Road America some time and you can tell the track owners how important TV is to them.
TV only came to racing because it was big and TV wanted to be a part of it, NOT the other way around.

As to stick and ball, no fans in the stands, no team, it leaves or it dissolved, ask Montreal.

Seriously? Seriously? You're just arguing for arguments sake, now.