What is holding Williams back ? - Page 3

**Bononi** · 18 Mar 2012, 21:13 (Ref:3044186)

With Toyota (2010) they finished the season in 4th, and that was their best result since 2004 with BMW.

joe rossi · 19 Mar 2012, 00:46 (Ref:3044328)

Rubens would have bought the car home..

**Bononi** · 19 Mar 2012, 00:52 (Ref:3044335)

I don't think he would like to buy it to bring it to his home in Brazil.

Marbot · 19 Mar 2012, 00:58 (Ref:3044339)

I would say that the biggest change is that they now have Mike Coughlan designing the car (yes, I know he was a naughty boy, but he's all better now), rather than an engine that is vastly superior to the Cosworth. Aero is king in F1.

beau1 · 19 Mar 2012, 01:00 (Ref:3044341)

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe rossi

Rubens would have bought the car home..

In about 11th yes.

Its funny how this 'crash or win' attitude is celebrated for some drivers (Hamilton - particularly when he was of a similar experience level as Maldonado) but then criticised with others. I do generally agree with the idea that he should have brought the car home though.

stripedcat · 19 Mar 2012, 12:42 (Ref:3044602)

As we all know, aero is the major factor in designing an F1 car. The Cosworth engine wasn't bad, but I think that the Renault engine has better driveability.

**bella** · 19 Mar 2012, 13:39 (Ref:3044633)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

I would say that the biggest change is that they now have Mike Coughlan designing the car (yes, I know he was a naughty boy, but he's all better now), rather than an engine that is vastly superior to the Cosworth. Aero is king in F1.

are you sure that he joined williams at an early enough stage to make a difference?

for example, the marussia is still a complete cfd car, since the wind tunnel programme hasn't been operational for long enough to affect the design.

Marbot · 19 Mar 2012, 15:28 (Ref:3044702)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bella

are you sure that he joined williams at an early enough stage to make a difference?

He joined the team back in May 2011, so I reckon that he has been there long enough to have had a lot of input, if not all of the input, into this seasons Williams car.

Most agree that the Williams is the most improved car of 2012.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bella

for example, the marussia is still a complete cfd car, since the wind tunnel programme hasn't been operational for long enough to affect the design.

Marussia have a technical partnership with McLaren that has enabled them to have the use of their wind tunnel and other technonlogy for their 2012 car. Marussia also have a new technical base in Banbury. The cars design is a result of both CFD and wind tunnel use. Pat Symonds playing a big role in the design of the car. Timo Glock says that the car is a vast improvement over the previous Virgin cars.

Ironically, both teams now are headed technically by two victims of recent F1 'gates'.

chillibowl · 19 Mar 2012, 16:49 (Ref:3044741)

do we know if there were any radio orders from the Williams pitwall instructing PM to either push past Alonso or hold off and secure the points?

common sense would suggest they told him to bring it home safely but being a young man i cant blame him if he wanted to be a hero.

Marbot · 19 Mar 2012, 17:05 (Ref:3044747)

I think that this article explains all.

"I had already accepted [finishing behind Alonso] because I tried to pass into Turn 3 and it didn't work. I think Alonso was slowing down, his pace was not so strong, so maybe I got too close to him and that's why I lost the back."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98170

**bella** · 19 Mar 2012, 18:20 (Ref:3044787)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

The cars design is a result of both CFD and wind tunnel use. Pat Symonds playing a big role in the design of the car. Timo Glock says that the car is a vast improvement over the previous Virgin cars.

no, it's a full-cfd car. they only got last year's car in the tunnel just before christmas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by graeme lowdon

The car that we take to the grid this weekend is a full CFD car, so there is no windtunnel work on the car as it stands because there is such a long lead time. We are doing catch-up against teams who have a much better idea of how to use them, so they have a much better idea of correlation. So it is still an all-CFD car, it will be an all-CFD car that is developed using a windtunnel and the 2013 car will be the first one we do that actually has a windtunnel involved in developing it.

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...er-f1-virgins/

Marbot · 19 Mar 2012, 18:38 (Ref:3044800)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bella

no, it's a full-cfd car. they only got last year's car in the tunnel just before christmas.

That's interesting! Thanks for that.

**bella** · 19 Mar 2012, 18:48 (Ref:3044807)

that's where i was going with the whole how much influence does coughlan have on the williams thing - ok, so setting up an entire model shop and wind tunnel data analysis department (i'm sure they have a technical name apart from "boffins"

) takes longer than it does for a leader to change the direction of design and development in a car. presumably the williams new car design process started around the time he arrived, whereas vir.. marussia's was already a few months late and symonds could get his hands on it immediately.

whatever both teams have done, so far it has definitely worked!

barnettracing · 19 Mar 2012, 18:52 (Ref:3044810)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

He joined the team back in May 2011, so I reckon that he has been there long enough to have had a lot of input, if not all of the input, into this seasons Williams car.

Most agree that the Williams is the most improved car of 2012.

Like Bella, I doubt Coughlan had much of an input on the overall design philosophy of this year's Williams. I suppose he did join before the summer (the time when most teams start to heavily focus on next year's car) but he would have had to have time to integrate into the team and understand the processes in place before even getting to look at and understand the team's design plans for 2012.

I'd imagine he would have made some suggestions, and his influence during testing was probably invaluable, but I doubt he was single-handly Williams' messiah.

I'm certainly happy that the team has made a radical step forward, they were one of my favourite teams as a child so to see them back up the grid has put a smile on my face. Now, if only they could find some of their own sponsors and hire some decent drivers...

wolfhound · 19 Mar 2012, 19:42 (Ref:3044853)

I would imagine that Mike Coughlan had a significant influence over this years car as Williams has a pretty good factory aero facility and other infrastructure that would leave them with shorter lead times than Marussia.
Don't forget Marussia were starting from a low base in terms of infrastructure in designing this years car.

**Peter Mallett** · 19 Mar 2012, 20:06 (Ref:3044866)

In answer to the thread title. Pastor Maldonado.

barnettracing · 19 Mar 2012, 20:18 (Ref:3044881)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfhound

I would imagine that Mike Coughlan had a significant influence over this years car as Williams has a pretty good factory aero facility and other infrastructure that would leave them with shorter lead times than Marussia.
Don't forget Marussia were starting from a low base in terms of infrastructure in designing this years car.

This is true, I hadn't really considered that. I suppose Maldonado's PDVSA money must help that.

Marussia always seem to be starting from a low base. They have been in F1 three years now and they seem to have made no progress relative to the establishment. I suppose you could say that to only be 5 seconds off after no preseason testing is an achievement, but the fact that they put themselves in that position is lamentable.

I wonder what was running through John Booth's mind during the off-season?

Marbot · 19 Mar 2012, 23:08 (Ref:3044996)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

In answer to the thread title. Pastor Maldonado.

So you think Maldonado in a Williams doesn't compare too well with Alonso in a Ferrari?

I certainly think that Senna got a shock in qualifying. Neither of Williams drivers covered themselves in glory, but at least Williams know that they've got a good car to build on, even if they haven't really got the drivers to bring them home.

JeremySmith · 20 Mar 2012, 00:29 (Ref:3045036)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

In answer to the thread title. Pastor Maldonado.

Not ! as Kimi would say...

**Bononi** · 20 Mar 2012, 00:33 (Ref:3045039)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

So you think Maldonado in a Williams doesn't compare too well with Alonso in a Ferrari?

I certainly think that Senna got a shock in qualifying. Neither of Williams drivers covered themselves in glory, but at least Williams know that they've got a good car to build on, even if they haven't really got the drivers to bring them home.

They do have a good car and a good engine, there's hope for evolution now.

djinvicta · 20 Mar 2012, 20:54 (Ref:3045597)

Perhaps they will take Massa off Ferrari.....

Theyres a thought..Bruno or Pastor number 2 at Ferrari

JeremySmith · 20 Mar 2012, 23:42 (Ref:3045709)

Quote:

Originally Posted by djinvicta

Perhaps they will take Massa off Ferrari.....

Theyres a thought..Bruno or Pastor number 2 at Ferrari

I would never put Pastor Maldonado in a Ferrari....

Marbot · 21 Mar 2012, 00:00 (Ref:3045718)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I would never put Pastor Maldonado in a Ferrari....

Yeah. You wouldn't want him getting anywhere near Lewis Hamilton.

**Bononi** · 21 Mar 2012, 00:36 (Ref:3045731)

Near anyone...

moonman · 25 Mar 2012, 18:52 (Ref:3048223)

I think this year they we can already say that there is hope for them, I was to give up not long ago.

Just my speculation why things look brighter now:

Getting rid of Patric Head - too old and probably wanted to do things the same way they did in 90's when they were still winning. Just look at the F2 car he was responsible for...

Getting rid of Sam Michael - I don't think he have what is needed to lead the development of a F1 car, year after year he was there but not much results. And now he is sporting director at McLaren, pretty far away from design and development I guess...

The Renault engine for sure have to be better than the previous one.

Pastor Maldonado is the right driver for Williams, no one has better value for money in F1 currently.

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