Marko on Webber

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by chunder

I am not sure who Mr marko is, or how qualified he might be to come up with these fairly regular comments about various rivals to his little boyfriend, but it does get a little tiresome.

I can take comment from a Jackie Stewart or Lauda as they have been there in the thick of titles and competition, but some gnarly old man who mis maktes with the Red Bull boss and happens to be involved with the current Ringmeister? No, sorry mate not going to value your opinion, coz in reality it os no more or less qualified than mine.

Webber cant be doing that bad a job as there are plenty of young boys ready to take over, and so far none have, he has won GP's every year for 3 years, more than Massa has and other than last year at McLaren, I cant see a better or stronger pairing on the grid. OK he isn't better than Seb, but then not many peopel are, so just leave him alone and stop trying to weedle one of your other lovechilds into the seat and stick to wheeling and dealing which is what you seem best at.

Can't say I disagree with these sentiments. Part of the reason I dislike Vettel is because of Marko. It's like a rich dad ever-present at a team, ensuring only the best for his boy, and gets upset when the team mate beats his boy. so makes sure the team gets the car to suit his boy.

You mention Jackie Stewart. If Stewart was to say Vettel is the best thing since sliced bread, I'd have to take note , but from Marko? no.

Marko, and other posters here, mention Webber losing a championship because he cracked up under pressure. Not too sure about that myself, but Vettel has cracked up at times, and particuarly, he cracked up under pressure at Brazil when he lost control of his car, but luck was with him and he was able to continue.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by chunder

I am not sure who Mr marko is, or how qualified he might be to come up with these fairly regular comments about various rivals to his little boyfriend, but it does get a little tiresome.

I can take comment from a Jackie Stewart or Lauda as they have been there in the thick of titles and competition, but some gnarly old man who mis maktes with the Red Bull boss and happens to be involved with the current Ringmeister? No, sorry mate not going to value your opinion, coz in reality it os no more or less qualified than mine.

I am not putting Mr. Marko in Lauda´s or Stewart´s level..., but he was a highly regarded driver in its moment...

Anyhow, I find his comments on Webber completely out of place for a team boss, same as when he trashed Alguersuari and Buemi...

[Steelepunk]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

What did you say?

I said I thought he was overrated & if he really wanted to be the best Australian driver he needed to go overseas and compete against the best.
Mark smiled and didnt reply.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by chunder

I am not sure who Mr marko is, or how qualified he might be to come up with these fairly regular comments about various rivals to his little boyfriend, but it does get a little tiresome. No, sorry mate not going to value your opinion, coz in reality it os no more or less qualified than mine.t.

So you've won Le Mans & the Targa Florio....& raced in F1?

Well done, what years?

.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

RBR have made no gripe that after an impressive first year with the team that it made sense to build the car around him and his style/likes. His age, size and long term contract all ensured that.

I think its fair to point out that when the boffins/engineers have given their drivers a car after the off season in 2010 and 2012 it was quick enough to get strong podiums and win races. (2010 4 wins for Webber to Vettels 2 by Round 12 & in 2012 2 wins for Webber to Vettels 1 win by Round 12)

The car handed to the drivers has meant that both drivers have been very even and Webber leading the points those particular years. Then as luck has it development goes a certain direction and Vettel gets more out of the package.

Its not saying Webber is being cheated by the car being designed for Vettel etc...or he is better if the team backed him...but I think if you are being critical then they are factors you have to consider.

The two are pretty close but you have to accept that 3 out of the 4 years Webber has been in the hunt and its been Vettel that sharpens his focus and results when the silverware is up for grabs. The 4th year, 2011 Vettel was miles ahead of everyone with how he came to grips with the new tyres and regs

No need for the long winded 'reasonings' (excuses)

Simply saying if he was at Ferrari, the Webber faithful would be complaining of favouritism toward Alonso....& so on for the other top teams

He's a very good #2 level driver, every team owner knows it, so why spend sleepless nights worrying that he's getting a raw deal?

He's done quite well for a guy with not a single championship trophy to his name.


.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

So you've won Le Mans & the Targa Florio....& raced in F1?

Well done, what years?

.

1971 1972.

On the ninth lap [Clermont Ferand], with Marko running in fifth position, a piece of stone was thrown up by the cars ahead, smashed through the visor of his helmet and went into his eye. Marko managed to avoid a big accident and stopped the car beside the track but a career that had promised so much was over. He lost the sight in his damaged eye and never raced in F1 again.

http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-marhel.html

He was certainly very good, sadly ...

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by MarkG

, he cracked up under pressure at Brazil when he lost control of his car, but luck was with him and he was able to continue.

Cracked? Really? I'll grant you that he was clumsy turning in at turn 4? But that was because he cracked ? No way.

Someone who, once hitting another car/being hit by another car, allows his car to freewheel backwards to avoid further trouble/contact is not a sign of cracking.

I'll agree that he was lucky that his car stayed in one piece, but from facing backwards and last on the first lap, by lap 8 he was upto 8th, that is the mark of someone with extreme talent and that is why Red Bull and Marko invest so much time, effort and money in him.

You may well dislike him, that is your perogative, but he gets the job done, Webber doesn't, that is why Webber gets criticised and Vettel doesn't.

Luca Di M spent most of the season making remarks about Massa, and they were justified, but there wasn't a thread about it.

Alonso went off twice at turn 1, maybe he cracked too ?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

So you've won Le Mans & the Targa Florio....& raced in F1?

Well done, what years?

.

Originally Posted by wnut

1971 1972.

...

I think Ornan was asking Chunder what years he won Le Man's and raced F1, not asking what years Marko did.

[wnut]

Lemans 1971
Targa 1972

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Cracked? Really? I'll grant you that he was clumsy turning in at turn 4? But that was because he cracked ? No way.

Someone who, once hitting another car/being hit by another car, allows his car to freewheel backwards to avoid further trouble/contact is not a sign of cracking.

Freewheeling straight backwards to give the following cars more time to avoid his car was, I think, the smartest piece of driving I have ever seen!

Shows just how glued together Vettel is!

[OZ_HCR32]

To some being analytical about drivers seasons is making excuses for the driver. Fair enough.

I enjoy trawling through the info available...it was fun watching Bourdais against Vettel and looking at the peripheries. Trulli vs Alonso in 2004.

Marko may have been a talent before his injury but he appears rather hopless at spotting and nurturing talent. Webber has all these flaws yet he put into the shade Klien...and the army of drivers that RB have supported in their early career they cant boot out a paid driver.

If Marko knows Webber is a bit flaky under pressure then coming out and saying it publicly isnt going to help the RBR driver. Most team players would be doing their part to support a contracted driver.

Which raises the question...what is his title/role. I thought he was the director of the REd Bull Driving programme and an advisor to the team?

[wnut]

I think Marko's point is that Webber is the number two driver, and his job is to help Vettel win the championship, not to make Vettel's life difficult by racing him and punting him off when Webber is being challenged by his team mate!

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Seriously F1FC you really are taking your displeasure to extremes.

It's built up over 17 years

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Quite bluntly we probably wouldn't have had F1 as a regular live feature on our TV for the past 5 or 6 years if "Australia's Mark Webber" hadn't been a feature
For that the sport in general, and F1 fans in particular owe him a debt of gratitude. Even in the Allan Jones Championship years we didn't get that level of coverage.

I think you underestimate the popularity of f1/motorsport in Australia. It might not be full on, mainstream popularity, but it's enough.

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Mark will go down as a bloke who achieved a lot on guts and detertmination without ever having the level of talent that his present team mate has. But he certainly outperformed most of the team mates he had before this one.

Tbh, it's not really saying much about him

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Quite frankly Australia should be proud of him.

Meh...sorry.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by MarkG

Marko, and other posters here, mention Webber losing a championship because he cracked up under pressure. Not too sure about that myself, but Vettel has cracked up at times, and particuarly, he cracked up under pressure at Brazil when he lost control of his car, but luck was with him and he was able to continue.

While Vettel wasn't convicing throughout '10. It has to be acknowledged that, when the title became really serious, he stepped up and won 3 of the last 4 races to clinch it. While he didn't have it in the bag, he was looking good to win in Korea, so that could've been the last 4 in a row.

On the other hand, after a slow start, Mark's performances diminished at the end of the season, having been, possbily the best driver of the season til 3/4 of the way through. It's like a batsman in cricket, who completely loses the plot in the 90s, after having played so well to get there.

Originally Posted by Steelepunk

I said I thought he was overrated & if he really wanted to be the best Australian driver he needed to go overseas and compete against the best.
Mark smiled and didnt reply.

Man, you played right up his alley there. I've often read his interviews where he has been subtly demeaning of Australian motorsport. He would've loved that! I'm surprised he didn't try to get his partner to adopt you.

1971 1972.

On the ninth lap [Clermont Ferand], with Marko running in fifth position, a piece of stone was thrown up by the cars ahead, smashed through the visor of his helmet and went into his eye. Marko managed to avoid a big accident and stopped the car beside the track but a career that had promised so much was over. He lost the sight in his damaged eye and never raced in F1 again.

http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-marhel.html

He was certainly very good, sadly ...

So it was his fault that Gerhard Berger had a career in F1! What a potato he was! No wonder Marko loves Vettel so much. You can't seriously be called a "talent spotter" when your best effort is Gerhard Berger!. He's validated his "talent spotting" career.

Regarding his driving career, he comes across as such a **** nowadays, that it's hard to empathise with what happened to him.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I think Ornan was asking Chunder what years he won Le Man's and raced F1, not asking what years Marko did.

Chunder at Le Mans? Now that's amusing (private joke).

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by wnut

Freewheeling straight backwards to give the following cars more time to avoid his car was, I think, the smartest piece of driving I have ever seen!

Shows just how glued together Vettel is!

Agreed... his race, and championship, should have ended there and then. Because of this piece of smart thinking, he managed to get back in the thick of it once again and did enough to take the crown.

[Greem]

I seem to recall Hakkinen going backwards across grass at 100mph+ some years ago. When they showed the onboard he was staring at the rear view mirror and flicked the car round on an escape road as soon he got to it.

That was smart thinking. He was a champ too

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by wnut

Freewheeling straight backwards to give the following cars more time to avoid his car was, I think, the smartest piece of driving I have ever seen!

Shows just how glued together Vettel is!

to this, and another Vettel supporter's view..
you've convinced yourselves, but not me..

My mind may be changed about Vettel possibly in the future, but not on this forum.
Some say tomaRto, some say tomato.. that's the way it is.

[Flat Out Farr]

Guys

I own up to being a Webber Fan. I love his ballsy style and his Mansell type approach. As I am of the age when I watched GP's at Brands (Hunt's race when the fans forced the organisers to let him run) and Mansell's 1st GP win (awesome piece of driving), I am not a fan of the corporate driver that we sadly have these days. I was impressed when Webber got that Minardi to 5th in the Australian GP.

I think Marko is disruptive within RB, in fact I am amazed that Christian hasn't thrown a wobbler over his comments. Is Marko the Prince Philip of F1? Webber is not stupid and knows the writing is one the wall, however, he also knows that none of the young pretenders are as good as him. In Horner's position, why choose one of the RB protegees over Webber when Webber delivers and is a generally good team player. Loved the "Not bad for a No 2 driver" comment.

I think Mark would be a good no 2 for Alonso. Body language suggests he will not be sharing a Fosters with Mr One-Finger, on a social occasion! I own up to not being a Vettel fan. Everyone says he is very good, but he is yet to be in a position where his car is average. See what happens if Newey goes to Ferrari, as a swansong. Will Vettel be as robust at wringing the neck of an average car? Jury is out. Alonso(not a personal favorite but I cheered for him to win the 2012 championship over Vettel) showed how good he is by putting the 2012 Ferrari in positions where it shouldn't have been ! Will Hulkenburg go to RB to take his place or is he being lined up for Massa's seat? Personally, I think we will see Massa be closer and occasionally beat Alonso this season, now his mojo is back. Could Nico be driving for RB in 2014, if Lewis shows him to be a bit slow now? 2 Germans in the RB team?

I wish Mark Webber success this season. I know RB won't allow him to win the WDC as Vettel is the golden boy, but I look forward to seeing him give Herr Vettel a run for his money. This season will be very interesting. I expect a few more surprises. Can Button do a good job as team leader? Can Perez stop crashing and prove that his Sauber season wasn't a fluke? Will Williams produce a decent car for Pastor to win again? Would be great to see Kimi put Team Enstone on the podium more often. Can Ross finally give Lewis and Nico a decent car to drive? Surely he hasn't lost the knack? What price Marussia embarrassing a few of the mid-grid teams?

Just like to say thank you to my Mum and Dad for buying a house close to Brands in 1955, allowing me to spend too many Sundays up there when I should have been doing homework! It's down to you that I started comepting at an early age !!!

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by wnut

I think Marko's point is that Webber is the number two driver, and his job is to help Vettel win the championship, not to make Vettel's life difficult by racing him and punting him off when Webber is being challenged by his team mate!

I wouldn't be surprised if these comments came out because of the Brazilian race. Iirc, Mark was fairly vocal beforehand saying that he wouldn't go out of his way to help Vettel, then, when the race started, he pulled left, in front of Seb, which effectively allowed both Ferrari's free passage down the outside, right hand side of the track and around both Red Bull's. Then came the restart after the safety car where he appeared to take a run at his team mate and narrowly avoided contact (wonder if Mark would have had a seat at Red Bull, contract or not, had at one gone wrong?).

Not sure i agree totally with what Marko is saying, providing i'm reading it right that is. From what i gather, he's saying that Webber is now playing a Massa role. I don't agree. Come Australia, i'm sure that if Mark is ahead of Seb he won't be ordered to move over as Felipe would be, but come the end of the season, if it's Vettel v Alonso again (most likely scenario) then Mark will be expected to play a more "team player" role.

[OZ_HCR32]

The thing is you reap what you sow. When Webber was quicker than Vettel at Silverstone in the closing 8-10 laps he was told to hold station. Whenever Webber is ahead of Vettel in a race Seb puts him top sword with bold moves which Webber rarely defends these days.

I can understand there is a bit of frustration to Webber's driving at the end of last year. His Abu Dhabi race was very messy, and I think after the US GP mech failure I think he wanted to have a punt at winning in Brazil.

I understand the team need to get two cars home, but must be frustrating for Webber who isnt able to get the life out of the tyres that Vettel is which means from tiem to time his more agreesive pit strategy puts him in a faster car at the end of the race and he isnt allowed to use it.

I dont agree with Webber making Vettels iife more difficult then need be in Brazil. But first turn is first turn...Webber wanted a 3rd win in Brazil and Vettel just needed to keep Alonso in check. Thats how he approached the wekend

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I wouldn't be surprised if these comments came out because of the Brazilian race. Iirc, Mark was fairly vocal beforehand saying that he wouldn't go out of his way to help Vettel, then, when the race started, he pulled left, in front of Seb, which effectively allowed both Ferrari's free passage down the outside, right hand side of the track and around both Red Bull's. Then came the restart after the safety car where he appeared to take a run at his team mate and narrowly avoided contact (wonder if Mark would have had a seat at Red Bull, contract or not, had at one gone wrong?).

Not sure i agree totally with what Marko is saying, providing i'm reading it right that is. From what i gather, he's saying that Webber is now playing a Massa role. I don't agree. Come Australia, i'm sure that if Mark is ahead of Seb he won't be ordered to move over as Felipe would be, but come the end of the season, if it's Vettel v Alonso again (most likely scenario) then Mark will be expected to play a more "team player" role.

That is exactly what I was driving at!

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

While Vettel wasn't convicing throughout '10. It has to be acknowledged that, when the title became really serious, he stepped up and won 3 of the last 4 races to clinch it. While he didn't have it in the bag, he was looking good to win in Korea, so that could've been the last 4 in a row.

On the other hand, after a slow start, Mark's performances diminished at the end of the season, having been, possbily the best driver of the season til 3/4 of the way through. It's like a batsman in cricket, who completely loses the plot in the 90s, after having played so well to get there.

Speaking of Potato heads... 3 of the last 4, 2 of those he had Webber on his tail not allowed to pass, despite leading the WDC and Seb being miles behind... for that reason alone I was backing Alonso praying it all blew up in RBR face
I am not a fan boy of his, no driver sees me gushing, but your dribble is just pooling on the floor and needs to be mopped up
I do remember doing the Proddies when he was in FF in 94 where it was obvious he was better than someone like Lowndes (in the same car)
IIRC Webber is now the oldest driver on the grid (he may be the only one still born in the 70's!), and he is there on merit, not because of any sugar daddy, actually he is there despite others having sugar daddies.

Of course he is number 2, 2013 will most likely be his last year and in all likelihood he will help RBR win another constructors championship because no other team has the depth of driving RBR has and the scoring will mean even if someone else wins the WDC over Vettel their car will need to be as revolutionary as an FW14b to beat the team

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

Speaking of Potato heads... 3 of the last 4, 2 of those he had Webber on his tail not allowed to pass, despite leading the WDC and Seb being miles behind... for that reason alone I was backing Alonso praying it all blew up in RBR face

In Korea, the conditons were so unpredictable, and the opposition were so close to them that had Webber been in a position to pass, there's really nothing RB could've done to hold Webber back. As it turned out, Vettel's car broke down, therfore a Webber podium, let alone a win, would've taken Vettel out of any serious title contention. But, like I stated in the other post, I've found it annoying when other make excuses for him. He's the one who' trumped himself up, and always blaming the cars. As they say "A good tradesman doesn't blame his tools."

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

I am not a fan boy of his, no driver sees me gushing, but your dribble is just pooling on the floor and needs to be mopped up

"I'm not a fanboy" translated means "I am a fanboy".

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

I do remember doing the Proddies when he was in FF in 94 where it was obvious he was better than someone like Lowndes (in the same car)

Oh really??? Will have to look up the 94 proddie car season to try and fugure you out. You see this is not a good comment. To the uninitiated, they will think Webber show some spark to suggest he was a future gp star, whereas in fact he didn't. I remember him having one decent race at Winton, but that's hardly a great indicator.

Better than Lowndes??? Mate, you're not talking to some random european on here who wouldn't know any better of aus fford and couldn't care less, I know the 94 season better than what even Steve Richards would. What did Webber do that was so great in 94?


I agree that in 95, the wins at Sandown and Phillip Island were outstanding, buit they were just two races. For whatever promise he showed, he still ended up 4th behind Bright, Monaghan and Noske. Monaghan was in a year old car as well. None of those drivers showed a level of ability that a serious future gp couldn't handle. Seriously, which driver, who takes themselves as seriously as Mark Webber does, gets beaten by Mark Noske? Even you could take Noske, whoever you are.

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

IIRC Webber is now the oldest driver on the grid (he may be the only one still born in the 70's!), and he is there on merit, not because of any sugar daddy, actually he is there despite others having sugar daddies.

So, what does Mark's dad do for a living? Who goes out and buys the reigning ffords champ car for their son to have as their first race car? Ok, it wasn't all his Dad's money, his Dad had to ask his mate David Campese for some loose change.


How does a guy finish 2nd in brit fford, to his team mate, progress to f3? (yet his team mate didn't)
How does a guy become the 4th best Merc gt driver, of 4 drivers, and still get the sponsorship to go to f3000?
How does a guy, who finished a clear 2nd in f3000, despite being a clear favourite, progress to F1?


But it's ok, he's a great driver. He outqualified Alex Yoong!

[Notso Swift]

I defer to your Wiki qualified knowledge and selective quoting
I will forget that Webber was faster then Lowndes in the same car, despite it being about 4 years old by the time he got it, I will forget that Frank made sure that Craig had the most powerful motor when he ran the car yet the time sheets apparently lie
The guy earned is stripes, as said by heaps of others you and the RBR driver development manager obviously has a problem with him, yet he can't find anyone to replace him despite pouring millions into at least half a dozen "replacements" the fact is there are only about 4 guys you would have before him, one is his his team mate and the others are all clear number ones who will not drive beside Vettel.

Rhetorically: What the hell am I doing feeding trolls!