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View Poll Results: What score do you give it?
10 1 1.92%
9 0 0%
8 8 15.38%
7 15 28.85%
6 16 30.77%
5 8 15.38%
4 2 3.85%
3 0 0%
2 2 3.85%
1 0 0%
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Old 17 Oct 2013, 16:24 (Ref:3319021)   #26
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I still don't follow the two compounds 'gimmick'.......
It means that the teams have got to compromise setup to a certain degree, and thus it brings the performance of all of the cars much closer together.

If you only need to use one compound during the race weekend, then that is going to hand that team, or teams, who go better on that tyre, an overall advantage.

If, for example, Red Bull only ever used the hardest compound of tyre available, then it's likely that the championship would have been over earlier than it is already likely to be because Red Bull would never have had to run on the softer tyre.
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Old 17 Oct 2013, 17:41 (Ref:3319053)   #27
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Still a gimmick, IMO.

The team that can compromise better has the same advantage.
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Old 17 Oct 2013, 17:43 (Ref:3319058)   #28
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sure but then it comes down to the drivers...which is what we want no?
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Old 17 Oct 2013, 17:58 (Ref:3319069)   #29
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In a sense yes, but it also produces pit-stop overtakes which in my opinion add no value at all.
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Old 17 Oct 2013, 18:18 (Ref:3319085)   #30
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So much promise in the beginning, but came up short. I.e. Webber had so much promise but ultimately got tricked into a farcical pit-stop strategy by his own team, handing the lead to "The Golden Boy". Also, Grosjean didn't help matters as far as trying to reel "TGB" in.

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Old 17 Oct 2013, 18:24 (Ref:3319088)   #31
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In a sense yes, but it also produces pit-stop overtakes which in my opinion add no value at all.
for me its the needless ones that come near the beginning of races that irritate but thats an issue i have with the quali rules.

other than that though i dont mind pit stops as i do feel there is value in a drivers ability to produce fast in and out laps. how much value it produces is hard for me to say but i dont recall enjoying 2005 very much although it did produce on of my favorite races of all time.
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Old 17 Oct 2013, 19:29 (Ref:3319115)   #32
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I guess I'm just old fashioned. I'd rather the drivers were all given a set of tyres good for the whole race and were sent out with no radio communication and told ' Now sort it out for yourself.......'
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Old 17 Oct 2013, 22:39 (Ref:3319229)   #33
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I guess I'm just old fashioned. I'd rather the drivers were all given a set of tyres good for the whole race and were sent out with no radio communication and told ' Now sort it out for yourself.......'

Seconded!

Tyres that are fit to race on!

Sticky tyres that can last a whole race if looked after!
Harder tyres that can be ragged a lot harder for the whole race.

Choose your tyres, and get on with it gentlemen!

If MotoGP can do it, F1 can do it!
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Old 18 Oct 2013, 01:14 (Ref:3319270)   #34
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Sticky tyres that can last a whole race if looked after!
Harder tyres that can be ragged a lot harder for the whole race.
A tyre manufacturer could never be sure which of its two chosen compounds (there are just two compounds, right?) would be suitable for the whole season, so it's likely that one compound is going to be very, very hard and the other, not so very, very hard. Much like the Bridgestone tyres of 2010, and the only thing that made those tyres interesting was the fact that you had to stop to change on to the harder/not so hard tyre to finish the last few laps on.

You could use either tyre to last the whole race distance because they were designed to have no severe drop off in performance, unlike the current Pirelli tyres. In fact, the Bridgestone tyres actually gave faster lap times as the fuel got burnt!

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Choose your tyres, and get on with it gentlemen!
Err.........better go with the very, very hard tyres, rather than the not so very hard tyres.

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If MotoGP can do it, F1 can do it!
MotoGP can also mix compounds front to back. That might be a way for F1 to go. Perhaps even differing compounds on the same axle? The tyres would still all need to be relatively hard if you're not going for any tyre stops or refuelling.

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Old 18 Oct 2013, 03:52 (Ref:3319300)   #35
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You could use either tyre to last the whole race distance because they were designed to have no severe drop off in performance, unlike the current Pirelli tyres. In fact, the Bridgestone tyres actually gave faster lap times as the fuel got burnt!



Err.........better go with the very, very hard tyres, rather than the not so very hard tyres.



MotoGP can also mix compounds front to back. That might be a way for F1 to go. Perhaps even differing compounds on the same axle? The tyres would still all need to be relatively hard if you're not going for any tyre stops or refuelling.
Perfect give them a choice of a number of compounds and let them choose the one they think is best for the race.
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Old 18 Oct 2013, 06:35 (Ref:3319312)   #36
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Thought it was a good race - it kept my attention all the way through, which most don't (I'm guilty of reading or surfing the web while watching). It had multiple threads to follow, some good moves, and interesting strategic stuff, so all in all, a good race. Definitely didn't mean to click the 10 button though. More like a 7, for me.
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Old 18 Oct 2013, 10:47 (Ref:3319401)   #37
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Perfect give them a choice of a number of compounds and let them choose the one they think is best for the race.
Over a race distance with no stops for fuel or tyres the only thing you would have to worry about is running out of tyre grip before the end of the race. Since this would be difficult to gauge during the free practice sessions, the only real option is to go for the hardest compound, which is also more likely to deal with a car with 100kgs of fuel on board at the start of the race. I suppose that a lot would also depend on how qualifying is dealt with. Pirelli have often said that they would make bespoke qualifying tyres for those who get through to Q3, but no one seems to be interested in that. But these are things that need to be dealt with well in advance of an upcoming season because they affect how a car should be designed.
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Old 18 Oct 2013, 10:54 (Ref:3319403)   #38
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Thought it was a good race - it kept my attention all the way through, which most don't (I'm guilty of reading or surfing the web while watching). It had multiple threads to follow, some good moves, and interesting strategic stuff, so all in all, a good race. Definitely didn't mean to click the 10 button though. More like a 7, for me.
A lot of the ex-F1 drivers agreed that it was a pretty good race, with some of them bemoaning the fact that it should have been as close as this when they were driving. I guess that not too many ex-F1 drivers wear rose-tinted specs.
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Old 18 Oct 2013, 13:01 (Ref:3319446)   #39
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If MotoGP can do it, F1 can do it!
More tyre irony.

"MotoGP field forced to use harder (Bridgestone) tyres after practice issues"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/110710
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Old 19 Oct 2013, 01:51 (Ref:3319675)   #40
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More tyre irony.

"MotoGP field forced to use harder (Bridgestone) tyres after practice issues"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/110710
At least they are not mandating 2 or 3 tyre changes during the race!

Who cares how hard the compound is? It is at least fit to race on!
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Old 19 Oct 2013, 02:12 (Ref:3319678)   #41
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I gave it a 7...
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Old 19 Oct 2013, 22:32 (Ref:3320115)   #42
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At least they are not mandating 2 or 3 tyre changes during the race!

Who cares how hard the compound is? It is at least fit to race on!
Actually, they're mandating at least one.
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Old 19 Oct 2013, 23:23 (Ref:3320143)   #43
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Guess that will teach me to hold up beacons of hope!



There really is no hope!
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Old 20 Oct 2013, 00:20 (Ref:3320163)   #44
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Guess that will teach me to hold up beacons of hope!



There really is no hope!
Admittedly, it's only for the Phillip Island round, and only because the new surface, combined with faster speeds, is particularly rough on tires. Kinda reminiscent of the U.S. GP in '05, except if everybody had been on Michelins.
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Old 20 Oct 2013, 00:54 (Ref:3320186)   #45
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At least they are not mandating 2 or 3 tyre changes during the race!
Well, there is only one mandated stop and that's to change to the other compound.

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Who cares how hard the compound is? It is at least fit to race on!
There seems to be this rather naive belief that having no pit stops at all will somehow make everything alright again in F1. Why did F1 start messing with something that wasn't broke the last time we had races with no pit stops in them? I bet you can't find any article about that which doesn't have the word 'processional' in it.
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Old 20 Oct 2013, 02:35 (Ref:3320275)   #46
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Well, there is only one mandated stop and that's to change to the other compound.



There seems to be this rather naive belief that having no pit stops at all will somehow make everything alright again in F1. Why did F1 start messing with something that wasn't broke the last time we had races with no pit stops in them? I bet you can't find any article about that which doesn't have the word 'processional' in it.
I am not suggesting more durable tyres as a cure for processional racing, I want more durable tyres so that drivers can race one another.
At present they have to treat the tyres like they are driving on eggshells.
I am quite okay with DRS and having to change tyres, I do however want to see tyres that can absorb a good deal of ragging. Maybe they should just set a maximum number of laps you are allowed to do on a set of tyres, so you have to change them irrespective of whether they are fully worn out.

I absolutely agree with you about processional racing though, it was just awful, hated it, anything is better than that! Horrible stuff!
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Old 21 Oct 2013, 13:42 (Ref:3321027)   #47
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I am not suggesting more durable tyres as a cure for processional racing, I want more durable tyres so that drivers can race one another.
This is the naive part that I was alluding to. If we had much harder tyres, then you are still playing into the hands of those few cars that are 'light' on their tyres. These cars tend to have the best downforce. For example, Mercedes were ruining their rear tyres because of a lack of rear downforce that has plagued the team since double diffusers were banned.

To say that harder tyres will let the drivers "race" one another, requires that all of the cars have them same amount of downforce. The only reason that there is close racing now is because the limiting factor is the tyres and not because the cars are closer together with regard to downforce levels. It's clear that the Red Bull car has massive amounts of downforce when compared to other cars, and the only thing holding them back from doing what McLaren did to everybody back in 1988, are the tyres.


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At present they have to treat the tyres like they are driving on eggshells.
Pirelli have got their compounds wrong at some races. But it's possible to reverse the situation and have tyres that will last for a race distance, but also suffer from issues like graining, or even tyre failure, on some of the cars. And there is no guarantee that race distance tyres can be 'ragged' from the start of the race to the end of the race, particularly if the cars are not stopping for fuel every so often, as was the case in 2005, which was also a season in which the tyres had to be 'managed', among many other seasons in which tyres had to be 'managed'.


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I am quite okay with DRS and having to change tyres, I do however want to see tyres that can absorb a good deal of ragging. Maybe they should just set a maximum number of laps you are allowed to do on a set of tyres, so you have to change them irrespective of whether they are fully worn out.
I don't think that the people working in the pit lane would be that interested in having all of the cars coming in and out of the pit lane on the same lap. Never going to happen. You could open up the period that the cars can pit by one or two laps, but eventually you will get all of the teams figuring out which lap it is best to stop on, so that's not really a workable regulation from a safety POV.

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I absolutely agree with you about processional racing though, it was just awful, hated it, anything is better than that! Horrible stuff!
Which is why we have the Pirelli tyres i.e. to stop the likes of Red Bull from disappearing into the distance on the very first lap because they are able to 'rag' the tyres and not worry about degradation. To be honest, I don't mind that, because the moaning we get about the tyres now, will be nothing in comparison to the moaning that we would get if Red Bull were lapping the entire field. Not particularly because Red Bull have the best overall F1 car, but maybe because another team qualified its car well, but have crap race pace. The name, Toyota, and the phenomenon known as 'The Trulli Train', springs to mind.

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Old 21 Oct 2013, 16:43 (Ref:3321142)   #48
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More tyre irony.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/m...8566--spt.html
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Old 21 Oct 2013, 21:50 (Ref:3321334)   #49
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There is no irony here, just shear pigheaded incompetence, and a refusal to do your homework even when faced with clear evidence that something needs to be done! Monopoly sickness?

The WSC Superbikes were at the Island in February, and they warned the manufacturers that there were major problems with the tyres at Phillip Island.

Additionally the Australian superbikes race there and have experience of the tyres on the track - Dunlop provide the tyres for that series!
Yet it came as a surprise in Moto2 & 3!
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Old 21 Oct 2013, 22:19 (Ref:3321346)   #50
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This is the naive part that I was alluding to. If we had much harder tyres, then you are still playing into the hands of those few cars that are 'light' on their tyres. These cars tend to have the best downforce. For example, Mercedes were ruining their rear tyres because of a lack of rear downforce that has plagued the team since double diffusers were banned.

To say that harder tyres will let the drivers "race" one another, requires that all of the cars have them same amount of downforce. The only reason that there is close racing now is because the limiting factor is the tyres and not because the cars are closer together with regard to downforce levels. It's clear that the Red Bull car has massive amounts of downforce when compared to other cars, and the only thing holding them back from doing what McLaren did to everybody back in 1988, are the tyres.
I have to disagree with you here Marbot, harder and more durable tyres provide a bigger window of operation. They will provide less of a difference between drivers like Vettel and Webber.
The reason that Vettel is running away is that he is extremely precise, this enables him to run the extremely fine line necessary to extract the maximum performance out of the delicate tyre. Webber on the other hand is more ragged, and the tyres go away from him fairly quickly which ensures that he cannot stay with Vettel for long.

With harder tyres Vettel would still be good, but I believe the others would be closer to him, because the tyres could absorb more punishment.
Qualifying tyres compared to hard compound tyres.

I think Lewis would benefit particularly as he could then take the Merc by the scruff and bully it into being competitive, where now as soon as the car is 'bullied' the tyres fall apart; explode in Perez's case!

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I don't think that the people working in the pit lane would be that interested in having all of the cars coming in and out of the pit lane on the same lap. Never going to happen. You could open up the period that the cars can pit by one or two laps, but eventually you will get all of the teams figuring out which lap it is best to stop on, so that's not really a workable regulation from a safety POV.
Fair point, works in NASCAR and INDYCAR though!

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Which is why we have the Pirelli tyres i.e. to stop the likes of Red Bull from disappearing into the distance on the very first lap because they are able to 'rag' the tyres and not worry about degradation. To be honest, I don't mind that, because the moaning we get about the tyres now, will be nothing in comparison to the moaning that we would get if Red Bull were lapping the entire field. Not particularly because Red Bull have the best overall F1 car, but maybe because another team qualified its car well, but have crap race pace. The name, Toyota, and the phenomenon known as 'The Trulli Train', springs to mind.
Disagree as above, and we now have DRS and KERS which will hopefully solve this problem!

P.S. Thanks Marbot, always enjoy your posts, provide great insights!
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