Is Alfa Romeo likely to return to WTCC?

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by awrb

I think some strong regs are needed for manufacturers to take the series seriously, then maybe Alfa and some more will join.

I think thats the biggest problem with WTCC right now, FIA shot themselves in the foot when tehy though they where nice and would attract more manufacturers when infact its the other way around.

[stedevil]

Indeed, unstable rules are not good for manufaturer interest. Both STCC and BTCC has a lot more car brands and they dont need a lot of manufacturer specific special rules that keeps changing every 2 weeks.

And what ever happened to the enviromental E85 rules for WTCC? Their webpage still state how Volvo might be joining for 2008, but I've yet to see any FIA E85 S2000 regs appear (even after Volvo compteated fairly in STCC all last year with E85, so surely there can't be too much problems with getting a fair reg out there...).

Get proper E85 rules out there and you would for sure have at least Volvo in the WTCC as well.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Indeed, unstable rules are not good for manufaturer interest. Both STCC and BTCC has a lot more car brands and they dont need a lot of manufacturer specific special rules that keeps changing every 2 weeks.

Ah, thats why the Astra won a race last year. Oh no, wait, it got COMPENSATED.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

Ah, thats why the Astra won a race last year. Oh no, wait, it got COMPENSATED.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused now. Could you specify what you mean?

If you are talking of the last race of STCC 2007 the Opel Astra was 6th on the grid and the top 5 on the grid all went off into the kitty litter on the very first lap in the extremely wet slippery conditions. The Opel then still wasn't in the lead, but still more leaders went off the track and in the end the Opel crossed the finishline first.

For me that looked a lot like good wet car setup comnbined with driver skill, pushing to the limit but not OVER the limit while everybody else overdrove and went off in the extremely difficult track conditions.

[Bramzel]

The Astra was compensated in 2007 to get closer to the front, thats what I mean. Compensating happens in STCC as well. And it would happen in BTCC as well if it turns out the TDI's were outrunning the rest of the field, just to name an example.

[werner]

The Astra had an engine that had a higher compressionrate that it should have had when it had not been given a rulebreak. Without it, it would probably have blown again....

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

The Astra was compensated in 2007 to get closer to the front, thats what I mean.

You mean they change things during the season for it to catch up? You have a link/referance for this?

[Bramzel]

It got a weight break and was allowed a higher compression rate as Werner said already. It remember it from a report on Touringcartimes.com.

[edit] Compression rate story: http://touringcartimes.com/news.php?id=1376

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

It got a weight break and was allowed a higher compression rate as Werner said already. It remember it from a report on Touringcartimes.com.

Yes, but when? At the homologation at the start of season or whenever they whined loud enough?

[edit] Thanks for the link. Though by august, giving a team ,that is already by far not in contention for the championship, a compression dispensation to not blow even more engines I don't really consider a big deal. And, as I already said, the only reason they won a race was because everybody else ended up in the gravel pit. There was barely anybody in the top 10 for DC that finished the race, and some of those that did finish was becuase they managed to get back on track after going to an excursion in the wild

[Bramzel]

Oh come on, compensation is compensation. Don't tweak the story to your own liking...

[JMeissner]

Its quite obvious that they got a performance boost from the compression increase...

[THIM]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

Its quite obvious that they got a performance boost from the compression increase...

But how it saves engines from blowing is less obvious, at least for me. Could someone explain?

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

Oh come on, compensation is compensation. Don't tweak the story to your own liking...

It saddens me that you don't understand the difference between 1 small allowance for a backwater completely out of competition for team or driver championship vs what is going on in the WTCC...
I guess the color of the cars really is the only thing that matters for you...

[Bramzel]

A weight compensation plus a higher compression rate is more than what Seat got in WTCC... And what do you think Alfa or Chevy would be without compensation? Indeed, backmarkers like the Astra. As I said, don't color reality to your own liking.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

A weight compensation plus a higher compression rate is more than what Seat got in WTCC...

So flat underbodies is nothing? And you still didnt link to the mid season weight compensation story you refer to.

As I said, don't color reality to your own liking.

The problem here is that you are trying to invalidate my point of WTCC being broken by making it out as it was the compensations that made the Astra win 1 race in STCC.

The Astra was still a backmarker even after the compensations and only won 1 race because of an incredible fluke where it literally was almost the only car that didn't go off the track.

In WTCC the compensations puts you on the podium regularely. Look eg at BMW 1-2-3 & 1-2-3 finishes in 2007 opening weekend... that was pure BS to please 1 brand and if you can't understand that eg Alfa and other manufacturers don't want to be apart of that then you can go on guessing why there is only 3 (ok, 2 Ladas + 1 Honda = 5) brands in WTCC when BTCC had 8(?) and STCC had 9 last year.

So you can continue talking about the Astra until you get as blue in the face as it's livery, but it still won't change the fact that WTCC is broken enough to not be interesting for the vast majority of manufacturers.

[Bramzel]

You make it sound like STCC and BTCC don't compensate, I show you thats not the case. But then it suddenly doesn't matter anymore, because its not a frontrunner. As you please then, enjoy your story

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

You believe that the STCC and BTCC have rolling starts just for the fun of it?

There are 2 ways to start a race. Standing or Rolling. Several series around the world, even when consisting of all BW driven cars, have rolling starts. If you have all BW or all FW driven cars it's a matter of preferance what you use.

But how big of a moron do you need to be to pick standing starts over rolling starts when it's a know physical fact that standing start shifts the weight balance of a car to FAVOUR a BW driven car? It's not COMPENSATION to have rolling starts with BW & FW driven cars racing each other, it's COMMON SENCE. In fact the opposite is true, standing starts is a compensation in favour of BMW, and race 1 & 2 of 2007 is the result of BMW whining like a ***** when they took away their unfair advantage in one of the two races.

PS I'm not anti BMW, they are just an example. The other 2 also whine like babies when they dont end up 1st on the podium.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by stedevil

why there is only 3 (ok, 2 Ladas + 1 Honda = 5) brands in WTCC when BTCC had 8(?) and STCC had 9 last year.

You aren't comparing like with like. The bulk of those makes in BTCC/STCC are non-factory independent entries.

If you are looking solely at works teams then it's makes the score this year BTCC 2, WTCC 3 (or 5). If you want to include all entries then last year the WTCC had 7 different makes (BMW/Alfa/SEAT/Chevrolet plus Honda/Toyota/Volvo), although admittedly not all were there all season.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by redshoes

You aren't comparing like with like.

Indeed I don't. 2 are only national championships. 1 is the World championship. A WC should be able to pull in a lot more interest from manufacturers IMO then a local happening. As far as I see it the reason WTCC doesn't is becuase too much of the championship is decided not on the track but in the political "tilt the rules in my favour" game played by the big 3 manufacturers present.

If you want to include all entries then last year the WTCC had 7 different makes (BMW/Alfa/SEAT/Chevrolet plus Honda/Toyota/Volvo), although admittedly not all were there all season.

Well, IIRC all those last 3 where present only 1 weekend each, and the Volvo wasn't even officially in the race for points. So while techincally on paper you can say 7, it's a lot of air in that number.

[stedevil]

Sorry for double post, edit timeout.
Just wanted to add, what might in fact be the biggest hint that something is broken in WTCC is that the independent cathegory currently consists of only 1 single Seat and the rest BMW. Compaired with the pleora of indie brands in BTCC and STCC the (barely) 2 brands in WTCC is a joke.

[JMeissner]

Come on stedevil, you can't possibly mean that STCC doesent use compensations to a high extent.

The weight list for all individual cars changed I don't know how many times during the season. The Opel, Alfa, Chevrolet, Mercedes and Peugeot all got lighter cars during the season.

I'm not saying that WTCC isnt' close to fiddling the life out of the championship, but they are not alone to struggle to keep the S2000 cars evenly matched.

[redshoes]

Doesn't the WTCC require even independents to be in an FIA homologated car, which somewhat limits your options. Local homologated entries like the Volvo, Toyota and sequential-box BMWs are limited to non-points scoring appearances.

If the BTCC and STCC adopted a similar requirement the 'plethora of indie brands' would instantly disappear, as would some of the works entries.

Again you are quoting numbers without allowing for the reasons behind those differences. You can not compare BTCC/STCC and WTCC on a equal basis until they are actually run on equal criteria.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Doesn't the WTCC require even independents to be in an FIA homologated car, which somewhat limits your options. Local homologated entries like the Volvo, Toyota and sequential-box BMWs are limited to non-points scoring appearances.

Yep. For example Philip Geipel (Toyota Corolla) finished a few times in top 8 but never got points for the Independent Trophy.

Race result Brno, race2:
http://dnl.fiawtcc.com/results/13574/result_185835.pdf

Independent Trophy:
http://dnl.fiawtcc.com/2007_WTCC_Trophies.pdf

[JMeissner]

Anyhow guys, we have strayed off topic for a good bit now - this thread is about Alfa Romeo and if they are going to return to WTCC or not, lets get back to it

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by redshoes

You can not compare BTCC/STCC and WTCC on a equal basis until they are actually run on equal criteria.

Well, it's not actually Volvos fault that WTCC still don't allow cars to use E85 fuel. Those regs where promised to appear for latest this year and you can still read on fiawtcc.com [1] how all cars will be moving over to exclusively bio-fuels in 2009... exactly how that will happen when they still havn't managed to even get the spec out yet is beyond me.

[1] http://www.fiawtcc.com/fiawtcc/sport_sto1147354.shtml

As for how many indie cars in the S/BTCC would be able to pass S2000 Homologation I don't know, but I assume it's not that many that would have a big problem. Eg I don't think any team runs sequantial gears in STCC.