Tilke-Designed Circuits

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by paddy

Or what? Participants in any sport accept injury as part and parcel of taking part. Whilst safety is important it shouldn't change the nature of the sport. I don't want to see drivers killed as I'm sure no one does, but risk is part of sport. Motorcycling, skiing, rugby and even football are sports where participants regularly get injured. It's accepted and people get on with it.

Okay I take your point and I am not making excuses as the run off at Abu Dhabi as in India is huge..But it's not part of the race track and the drivers know only too well that it's their job is to stay between the kerbs..

I do not want to see anyone get injured or worse, I am not suggesting that you do either let me make that clear.

So I will just say this, had Senna had that amount of run off at San Marino to scrub his speed he may well be alive today..

Michael Schumacher would not have broken a leg at Silverstone..

They do not play soccer at 398KPH as far as I know..Isle of Man TT races are insane and I am to scared to watch to be honest..

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Purist

Jeremy, that's missing the point.

If you're going to say that you NEED this level of run-off to be "safe", then you have to stick with that. You can't say that you'll let this place slide because there are buildings or hills in the way. Either the laws of physics say a thing is reasonably "safe", or they don't. Those characteristics don't change going from the UAE to New Jersey. If New Jersey levels of run-off are "safe enough", then there is NO NEED to have the massive run-offs anywhere.

Also, I have a pretty straightforward idea of the purpose of run-off and external barriers. The point, in my mind, is to protect the drivers and spectators, while containing the cars within the confines of the track. As long as the driver has an extremely good chance of walking away (which in F1, LMPs, and a number of other categories, they do), I have no concern for whether the car sustains some damage because there wasn't sufficient room to prevent it from hitting anything at all.

Preserving the car is up to the driver doing his job, and not making stupid mistakes.

I am not ignoring you, I will reply to your post..

[Vepe]

You don´t need very large run-off in every corner, basically just in the fast ones, like Pouhon. But the biggest problem, in my opinion, is that it´s all tarmac. I understand this in fast corners, but I don´t understand why they stick that stuff at the outside of slow corners like the hairpin at Hockenheimring...

What you need is a monaco-style run-off modified. Make the tarmac continue straight out and add gravel or grass on the outside, so you have to use the tarmac to go back. It´s just as safe and it punishes you also.

[Sodemo]

Not that I really want to get into the whole Senna accident thing, however if he had hit the barrier at a slightly different angle he probably would have survived. It wasn't the G-Force load of the accident, but the piece of suspension that popped up and struck his head. The car itself remained intact. So really, the car did its job and I guess you could say the track did its job too. The car stayed within the confines of the track, it was just pure bad luck that the piece of bodywork hit him where it did.

You could say that there should have been armco there instead of a concrete wall, you could say that it should have had tyres lining the wall, both of which may have saved his life.

[Marbot]

Turn 10 at Singapore is a silly chicane that ruins the racing, but the alternative seems to be almost certain serious injury if things do go wrong there. What can you do ?

[Purist]

I posted this in the Abu Dhabi race thread; however, I think it has relevance here also. This was in response to posts calling for the removal of downforce on the current cars in the hopes of improving racing AND hopefully reducing run-off sizes.

Unless your drag-inducing surfaces are perfectly vertical, they will produce either lift or downforce, but this can also change with the pitch-up or pitch-down of the vehicle. Also, don't count on the cars only producing downforce when going forward. There are minimum requirements for how fast a car must be able to go at 90 and 180 degrees yaw before it can lift off.

Also, an aero-neutral vehicle would be unable to self-damp any natural reaction to a disturbance. If cars start fish-tailing and wiping out in the middle of straightaways because of this, the FIA might require huge run-off zones on either side of straightaways.

Without downforce, the cars would have to be completely redesigned because of the difference in loadings on every part of the car. Without the downforce, the current cars would be too stiff, and thus, so jittery as to be literally undriveable. They would simply react too violently to any disturbance for a human to possibly be able to keep the machine in line for very long.

With the newer breed of tracks, your plan won't work to shorten run-offs at corners either. Run-off might be made somewhat smaller at some fast corners. However, run-off size is determined by the terminal velocity achieved at the end of the straight. With minimal downforce, the long straights on newer tracks will be faster, because many of these straights are preceded by slow corners now, where it's mechanical grip that matter more anyway. Therefore, you'd be required to make the run-offs at those hairpins larger, NOT smaller. Also, if the approach to a fast corner is long enough for the terminal velocity on the straight before it to be higher than with the downforce, then that fast corner will be required to have more run-off as well.

So, you see, it's NOT so simple a problem to solve, and the rules have kind of painted F1, and other top-level categories, into a corner on some issues.

[Purist]

Marbot, I think that they could just have the cars bear left at Turn 10 with just a single corner, leaving more tarmac out there before you reach the wall. There appears to be enough space to realign things some between the chicane and the following esse-bend.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Purist

I posted this in the Abu Dhabi race thread; however, I think it has relevance here also. This was in response to posts calling for the removal of downforce on the current cars in the hopes of improving racing AND hopefully reducing run-off sizes.

Unless your drag-inducing surfaces are perfectly vertical, they will produce either lift or downforce, but this can also change with the pitch-up or pitch-down of the vehicle. Also, don't count on the cars only producing downforce when going forward. There are minimum requirements for how fast a car must be able to go at 90 and 180 degrees yaw before it can lift off.

Also, an aero-neutral vehicle would be unable to self-damp any natural reaction to a disturbance. If cars start fish-tailing and wiping out in the middle of straightaways because of this, the FIA might require huge run-off zones on either side of straightaways.

Without downforce, the cars would have to be completely redesigned because of the difference in loadings on every part of the car. Without the downforce, the current cars would be too stiff, and thus, so jittery as to be literally undriveable. They would simply react too violently to any disturbance for a human to possibly be able to keep the machine in line for very long.

With the newer breed of tracks, your plan won't work to shorten run-offs at corners either. Run-off might be made somewhat smaller at some fast corners. However, run-off size is determined by the terminal velocity achieved at the end of the straight. With minimal downforce, the long straights on newer tracks will be faster, because many of these straights are preceded by slow corners now, where it's mechanical grip that matter more anyway. Therefore, you'd be required to make the run-offs at those hairpins larger, NOT smaller. Also, if the approach to a fast corner is long enough for the terminal velocity on the straight before it to be higher than with the downforce, then that fast corner will be required to have more run-off as well.

So, you see, it's NOT so simple a problem to solve, and the rules have kind of painted F1, and other top-level categories, into a corner on some issues.

I don't necessarily agree totally (maybe to a small degree) with this.

The current high downforce spec of the present cars does create significant drag and eliminating drastically the downforce allowed would reduce the drag but not necessarily proportionally.
Assuming higher termial speeds also assumes the cars entered the straight at a speed similar to the present high downforce configuration but that wouldn't happen.

The entry speed onto the straights would be significantly reduced because of the lower downforce. With similar power to weight ratio's acceleration would be closer to the present rate, only at higher speed (so only on long straights) would the lower drag coefficient come into play and with less downforce and lower grip, along with slower corner speeds, braking distances would increase, reducing the actual length on the present straights a car would be accelerating before the braking point.

Run off would not need to be that much greater because if it let go, it would be at a much lower speed, if at all although I would consider that with less downforce the car may slow at a lower rate (unless of course you intended to increase significantly the mechanical grip-but if that came with increased drag co-efficient then your higher terminal speed on long straights may also go out the window)

[paddy]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Okay I take your point and I am not making excuses as the run off at Abu Dhabi as in India is huge..But it's not part of the race track and the drivers know only too well that it's their job is to stay between the kerbs..

I do not want to see anyone get injured or worse, I am not suggesting that you do either let me make that clear.

So I will just say this, had Senna had that amount of run off at San Marino to scrub his speed he may well be alive today..

Michael Schumacher would not have broken a leg at Silverstone..

They do not play soccer at 398KPH as far as I know..Isle of Man TT races are insane and I am to scared to watch to be honest..

Is Schumi breaking a leg such a big deal? I don't know enough to comment on Senna although as he was killed by the penetration of his helmet by a suspension part i'm not sure run off was key. In fact Massa suffered a similar injury that wasn't due to impact at all.

As for football( I can't call it soccer as I'm English and we invented it!) you also don't wear protective equipment, except shin pads, and you are not surrounded by carbon fibre and deformable structures. My club, Nottingham Forest, have seen two anterior cruciate ligament injuries to players in a little over 14 months. Although both players are expected to recover they have suffered career threatening injuries at a young age with at least a year out injured. If they do make a full recovery they are not guaranteed to be able to play professionally. It's part of the game. They were accidental injuries. I just think that it's part of sport.

What gets my goat is watching Schumi use free practice to continually run through chicane run off areas with impunity. To me it's farcical. F1 drivers are supposed to be the best and if that's true they should be able to use the track. There is simply too much opportunity to be sloppy and imprecise.

[JeremySmith]

Is Schumi breaking a leg such a big deal? Are you being serious?

[Purist]

Teretonga, most of the newer tracks have longer straights. Also, the 40-50mph hairpins that lead onto quite a few of those straights will be virtually uneffected by the loss in downforce, so I would expect higher top-end speeds on the main straights at Abu Dhabi, India, Korea, Malaysia, Valencia, Bahrain, and Istanbul.

On the older circuits, I could see higher top-end on the pit straight a Interlagos, at least a couple of the straights at Monza, the pit straight and backstretch at Suzuka (before the 130R), the long backstretch at Hockenheim, and the back straight (leading to the final chicane) at Montreal. With the (fairly) new chicane before the final corner, the pit straight at Catalunya might also be in there.

If you take out the aero, focus WILL shift toward mechanical grip. Also, the fuel economy will improve with the lower drag, so fuel tanks will be smaller and the cars can be made still lighter. Of course, this change would encourage further engine development, and increased power, so the fuel decrease might not be quite as much. They'll already be lighter without all those downforce-inducing appendages, and also, perhaps, because the sidepods will be much more minimal (if not practically non-existent).

With advances in tires, brakes, and how other components have been improved to increase the effectiveness of the transfer of the braking force, stopping distances, even without the downforce, will be HUGELY reduced over what was seen in the 1960s (the last time F1 cars lacked wings). A Ford GT40 could pull up from 220mph down to 40mph in 300 yards. An F1 car weighs substantially less than that GT40 (2200-2450lb for the 7.0-litre GT40s), and then there are those brake, tire, and other improvements to factor in.

So, what the current cars can do in stopping at 60 yards, I could see the new breed of car doing in 100 yards (so, this covers a pretty severe braking zone). (IIRC, on lighter fuel, even for a very heavy braking zone, a current F1 car can pull up for the corner in roughly 50 metres, which corresponds to about 55 yards.) Anyway, that additional distance will NOT be enough to offset the greater acceleration and top-end gearing on a long straight.

Jeez, now I'm going to have to work on designing the cars, as well as the tracks.

[Purist]

Jeremy, how many kids break arms and/or legs in various sports, or just monkeying around on the playground, or in the case of my sister, on roller-skates in someone's basement?

These guys are throwing 700kg projectiles around at 200+mph. If they don't break a limb once in a while, it would seem like something was wrong, honestly.

In that extreme racing environment, yes, we are being perfectly serious in saying that breaking a leg (once in a long while anyway) doesn't seem like such a big deal.

I guess we had better start banning those other "sports", starting with cheerleading.

[JeremySmith]

Okay I see you point, It's a dangerous sport, thank god they are not racing on ovals..

[paddy]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Is Schumi breaking a leg such a big deal? Are you being serious?

Yes. I've only ever played amateur sport for fun. Rugby, to a decent level, football and cricket. One dislocated shoulder, broken elbow, broken thumb, broken ribs, a large number of stitches, knocked out several times as well as various soft tissue injuries. I'm left with painful joints for life. It's part of the game. if you don't want to get hurt do something else.

[Marbot]

Well, however you feel about track safety, the cars don't seem to be getting any slower.

http://www.motorsportsetc.com/info/spd_mon.htm

[RichardRenes]

Originally Posted by Purist

For those who have yet to see it, this is a diagram of Moscow Raceway, not to be confused with Eurasia Autodrome. Moscow Raceway is, of course, designed by Hermann Tilke. Construction has been underway for several months on the 4.070km (2.529-mile) circuit 77km from Moscow itself. The main/back straight is 873m.
http://www.motorsport-total.com/news..._big/39737.jpg

That most left section of the track kind of reminds me of Brno.. probably without the elevation changes though

[Purist]

Yes, it lacks the elevation changes, and is substantially tighter. Moscow Raceway is just 2.529 miles around, while Brno is 3.357 miles to the lap.

[paddy]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Well, however you feel about track safety, the cars don't seem to be getting any slower.

http://www.motorsportsetc.com/info/spd_mon.htm

That's the telling thing. The FIA really should be controlling the speeds then the tracks can be left alone. If you watch footage of older F1 cars, or were lucky enough to have seen them yourself, they weren't any less spectacular even though they were slower over a lap than now.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Awesome link there - enjoyed reading that.

But in all seriousness people, let's stop this hoo-ha.

Put them on one on-going straight that goes all the way around the world. Forget all these silly little races on race circuits! We could have one endurance race in a straight line that does the circumference of the planet. That way, by default, you'll have one on-going run off!

I won't speak too loud... Bernie might hear me

Selby

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Well, however you feel about track safety, the cars don't seem to be getting any slower.

http://www.motorsportsetc.com/info/spd_mon.htm

That's a very interesting study on how car speeds have increased and particularly how much they've gone up from 2000 to now.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That's a very interesting study on how car speeds have increased and particularly how much they've gone up from 2000 to now.

All the more interesting when you think that the turbo cars of the 80's had up to 1500 bhp available to them during qualifying at Monaco and yet were some 10 seconds/20 mph per lap slower than the current cars.

[Sodemo]

It just needs someone with some guts to actually slash the aero through different regulations. Slash it by 80%.

Is there really any need for the front wings to be 2 feet in depth? Nope. Make them so they are only 8-10 inches deep etc.

[Purist]

I felt prompted to see if there might be a bit more to add here, now.

Actual photos of the Sochi Autodrom are starting to stream out. We've had a couple of races at Austin, now. Also, lo and behold, that chicane at Singapore was removed.

Valencia and Istanbul are gone from F1, and for the moment at least, so are Buddh and Korea.

I'm not sure if Tilke is behind the remodeling going on at Mexico City, but I expect that he is heavily involved in whatever the new course is that will be run in Baku, Azerbaijan.

I haven't heard much lately about a Thai GP in Bangkok; the main thing I do know about is the new Buriram Circuit that is to host SuperGT and AsLMS this year, and is supposed to be F1-capable.

[GT-Eins]

Here a view on one of Tilkes recent projects - which will unfortunately not be build in this layout:
http://www.gt-eins.at/cms/index.php?...=9736&Itemid=1