Marshals input to race licence?

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Steve Fox

The point is that there should be questions to check the understanding of race day, that should include how to go through scrutineering, what to do if you get into difficulties out on the circuit, what the officials all do, what should happen if you end up in the gravel, there must be 30 questions that I didn't know the answer to the first time I raced at a circuit and I'd done a week long course

Yes - absolutely agree. It is not all about what to do if you stop on track. Looking at the responses I have had from the drivers I spoke to, (Publish soon I promise), but more about how a race day is organised, the hierarchy, flag sectoring and more understanding of the rules. More than anything I think ARDS needs to point out what you need to find out and how to do it. Let's hope MacGWC can get somewhere with it.

Like you, the first time Nina and I went racing we were also all at sea. What was worse it was at a circuit I had marshaled for 3 years or so and new well. I hate to think what happenes if you come in "blind".

The first time Nina saw a SC was on her second race. She wasn't a marshal at the time and had little idea what was happening, especially as she didn't really catch sight of the safety car as she was nearly at the back. The restart was hilarious, everybody took off and she just idled past wondering where everybody had gone, much to the chagrin of the 4 people behind her. It was due to inexperience - won't make that mistake again!

[Steve Fox]

Originally Posted by brickkicker

The ARDS is just to make sure you can drive around safely and is not designed to teach the driver what to do when it goes wrong.

I think that one of the points raised was that the ARDS test is so easy that it is almost impossible to fail, although I agree that it isn't the point of the ARDS to teach anyone anything, but to test their knowledge, I believe that their knowledge should be extended to matters of safety and proceedure and then they should be vigorously tested on it, As a driver and a Track Marshal I could think of a load of things to include but if you were to ask a scrutineer, startline marshal, medical officer, timekeeper, any number of different officials they could all think of some relevant questions, knowing the answers to which would not only make the day run more smoothly but could also potentially be a lifesaver, if the day runs smoothly and is somewhat safer then it must be more enjoyable for the competitor too.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Tal Aras

On the subject of drivers in the gravel for the first time, I've often wondered why our training days couldn't include a practical session on recovering vehicles from gravel (both after race and live snatch where relevant). Drivers could be invited to take part and get the experience of being pushed/pulled out.

Probably because any gravel trap visit/removal raises a possibility of damage. (Never mind the dirt and cleaning necessary!)

Going in gets stones into brakes, intakes, under cam shaft belts and into any recess available.

Being dragged out scoops gravel into any hole, can remove towing eyes and scratches bodywork.

That is one reason why we use a scrap car for training snatch crew.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

do you recover out of gravel with driver in car? would have thought that was highly risky (for the driver) and a H&S no-no

If not the driver (rare) then the snatch crew man. Sometimes he is outside but personally (having done it) that is a lot more scary and the chance of getting a foot under the rear wheel much increased.

Regards

Jim

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Next time you're at a circuit sit on the track and trying to pick out the flag point - it's not easy, believe me.

If you do sit on the track you can sometimes work out a modified way of displaying the flag to make it more visible.

Always used to try to do it when at a new post/circuit, but it almost went wrong at the first Birmingham Superprix - sitting in middle of track on approach to first bend - nearly got run over by a course car! Not sure which variant of the 'fat clerk' species was driving it at the time...

[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by exflagman

If you do sit on the track you can sometimes work out a modified way of displaying the flag to make it more visible.

Always used to try to do it when at a new post/circuit, but it almost went wrong at the first Birmingham Superprix - sitting in middle of track on approach to first bend - nearly got run over by a course car! Not sure which variant of the 'fat clerk' species was driving it at the time...

Not Guilty, I never went to the Birmingham Super Prix's - honest

[KayBee]

Something bikes do as a licensing requirement is a mock race day where riders undergo the entire race day experience - perhaps cars could look at something similar.

[saddelbags]

msa brought in ards to make money in my day no ards 70 entries for f3 the same for f fords 240 entries at mallory you could then argue that ards maid entries fall to present levels!!!

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by KayBee

Something bikes do as a licensing requirement is a mock race day where riders undergo the entire race day experience - perhaps cars could look at something similar.

In the days of Jim Russell Race school, there was exactly this!

[FRENCHIE44T]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Not Guilty, I never went to the Birmingham Super Prix's - honest

I did and I wish someone wouild come up with some cash to do it again. Only thing missing is the harbour.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by FRENCHIE44T

Only thing missing is the harbour.

Whats wrong with the Gas Street Basin?

[FRENCHIE44T]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Whats wrong with the Gas Street Basin?

Welllll, it just doesn't have the same effect.

[MacGWC]

Just to let you know that I decided to go direct to John Kirkpatrick of JRRDS (one of the founders of ARDS and still involved) re comments on what should be and should not be included in current ARDS courses. Subject to be discussed at next meeting on 22nd September.

[Terrible-Tones]

It's interestig what they do in Eire on their equivalent of ARDS

A link here

http://www.motorsportireland.com/Tra...otorsport.aspx

It seems on the face of it more comprehensive.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by MacGWC

Just to let you know that I decided to go direct to John Kirkpatrick of JRRDS (one of the founders of ARDS and still involved) re comments on what should be and should not be included in current ARDS courses. Subject to be discussed at next meeting on 22nd September.

Do remember that it is not a requirement to undertake an ARDS course.....you pay your money, get the video and the paperwork, book your test, turn up and pass it....it really is a piece of cake and a total rip-off......and as one who passed 4 years ago, I do agree that it should be tougher, and more instructive....I'm also a fan of drivers undertaking at least a day of mandatory marshalling - I did a day to get one of my signatures, and I've done a few days since, as (a) I like to put something back in to the sport, and (b) I do find it instructive...

On the subject of signals to drivers, particularly at start/finish lines......trust me - I almost never see any pit-board signs my crew are showing, and official signs are much less easily readable - a waved chequer flag is easy, but a small board with a number is in a different league......typical was at Brands almost a year ago, when we (CSCC) had an invitation race shared with a GT's meet - and at the end of our race, our CoC gave us all the most almighty rollicking because about 80% of us had apparently broken the pit speed limit and then ignored the signs calling us in for a drive-through.....it was a very bad end to the day....

Of course we were all baffled as we almost never get these infringements....examining in-car video revealed that the end-of-pit-lane speed limit marker had been moved between Qualy and Race, and no-one had told us - so of course everyone had floored it when we passed where the sign had been in Qualy......and as for ignoring the signs....when you are crossing the finish line at Brands you are aiming at the opposite side of the track, braking from high speed before turning into Paddock - and trust me. concentrating very hard on positioning your car and observing the other cars around you....leisure time to scrutinise something at 70 -80 degrees to the right of your visual focus is extremely limited.....In this case the CoC did write to us all a few days later saying that in the light of the circumstances he wouldn't be taking any further action......I think he was embarassed as no-one had told him of the limit change either....

Almost without exception of the circuits I have raced - Cadwell is probably the only one I can think of - your line / focus is on the opposite side of the track from where flags/boards are posted......if you know you've maybe transgressed then you'll probably look a little closer, to see if you've "got away with it", but otherwise it certainly isn't easy.....

[Woolley]

I really wish we'd do black flags the way the Americans do. A big black board with 'Black Flag Board' written on it in flourescent writing and a large number below. It's displayed before the last corner at a point where it is highly visible to the drivers - at Rockingham that was inside turn 3 and at Brands it was at the end of bottom Straight before Clearways. Also means that if something is leaking then they don't do a whole lap after you've told them to come in.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I really wish we'd do black flags the way the Americans do.

I might be extrapolating national practice from a single meeting here, but certainly at Mallala in South Australia they have a repeater post at post/turn 7, before the cars get to the last two corners. We didn't have to repeat any black/meatball/driving standards flags that day, but the whole caboodle was sitting in the corner of the flag point - big board, number cards, and extra flags.

Sadly it didn't stop a Commodore which had ruptured the sump doing a complete lap at racing speed...

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by Greem

I might be extrapolating national practice from a single meeting here, but certainly at Mallala in South Australia they have a repeater post at post/turn 7, before the cars get to the last two corners. We didn't have to repeat any black/meatball/driving standards flags that day, but the whole caboodle was sitting in the corner of the flag point - big board, number cards, and extra flags.

Sadly it didn't stop a Commodore which had ruptured the sump doing a complete lap at racing speed...

Nope, we do the same here in Victoria. Black Flag Relay points at every track, usually one that that drivers are looking at for a long time (approach to slow corner, on the line between apexes, that sort of thing.)

And drivers find it hard to miss the Black Flag board at Winton, its a little under 3x3 feet square, with foot high numbers on it.

[MacGWC]

Latest thing is the lighted panel, four feet by three feet perhaps, seen at Yas Marina - brilliant for displaying b/w diagonal and other start line flags. Any driver who misses this should be banned from further driving until he proves he is not totally blind!

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Greem

...Sadly it didn't stop a Commodore which had ruptured the sump doing a complete lap at racing speed...

You know what they say - you can't make anything foolproof; nature just evolves a better fool!

[Bob Pearson]

All this talk of the ARDS test not being hard enough and is the content the right one? bothers me a bit.
When I started car racing there was no such thing as an ARDS test, you just got in your car and set off. I don't recall there being any more problems caused by poor driving standards then than there is now, possibly the other way round.
I would be interested to hear if any marshals are reading this who marshalled in pre ARDS test days, and whether they can recall any improvement in driving standards taking place once the ARDS test came into being.

[The Fat Clerk]

I would be interested to hear if any marshals are reading this who marshalled in pre ARDS test days, and whether they can recall any improvement in driving standards taking place once the ARDS test came into being.[/QUOTE]

I completely agree with you. I got my Race Licence in 1977 and believe me the standards are not any worse today than they were then! I was in F.Ford 1600 as was, and believe me if you want to see some scary driving try and find videos or dvd's of the Festival @ Brands, especially with the catch fencing.

[Steve Fox]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

believe me the standards are not any worse today than they were then! I was in F.Ford 1600 as was, and believe me if you want to see some scary driving try and find videos or dvd's of the Festival @ Brands, especially with the catch fencing.

Now, Catch fencing. That would improve driving standards if you thought there would be half a chance of a face full of that. Not nice.

[The Fat Clerk]

I remember Dick Parsons dying @ Woodcote in a F3 race at Silverstone in the late 80's because of catch fencing, lethal stuff.

[MacGWC]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

All this talk of the ARDS test not being hard enough and is the content the right one? bothers me a bit.
When I started car racing there was no such thing as an ARDS test, you just got in your car and set off. I don't recall there being any more problems caused by poor driving standards then than there is now, possibly the other way round.
I would be interested to hear if any marshals are reading this who marshalled in pre ARDS test days, and whether they can recall any improvement in driving standards taking place once the ARDS test came into being.

As someone, like Fat Clerk, who was both sides of the pre-ARDS divide, I am not sure ARDS or no-ARDS, is the only relevant factor.

In the ensuing years the general respect for authority has declined.

Most of the current Clerks came up via the marshalling route and arguably a little better skilled at driver observation on track than some of their predecessors. The other side of that particular coin, so as not to be seen to be unfair to previous Clerks, is to point to the myriad of better information systems current Clerks have to deal with transgressions - better trained marshals, much, much more information from timekeepers and the benefit of footage from track and in-car cameras that can be replayed endlessly to better establish who-hit-who!

There are also the MSA training schemes for Clerks and Stewards and the judicial notes of guidance for Clerks just reissued that most Clerks find of great help. Making the Clerk the first stage of the judicial process, rather than everything going to the Stewards, has also helped the situations, evidenced by the greatly reduced number of appeals to the National Court.

I am not sure there has been any great reduction, nor any great increase, in the number of driving incidents dealt with but I suspect the accuracy has improved, because of the reasons given - certainly the number of appeals has reduced dramatically. However, I see no harm in trying to make sure new drivers are aware of this, amongst other facets of an average day racing, before they hit the tracks and ARDS, to me, would be a good place to start.