Judd

[noise boy 2]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
One note back to the Sprint car engines:

To build a top-of-the-line sprint car engine that'll crank up somewhere between 700-800 horsepower costs in the range of $25,000- $35,000 each...that's with an aluminum block, like a World of Outlaws engine...the 410 CID and the 360 CID engines are built off of the same block configurations and designs...the 410s have a longer stroke and are bored out bigger...

Sure...you'd have to de-tune it to race endurance in a sportscar...but these builders are very innovative and someone like Ed Pink, as an example, has a wide range of experience with many types of racing engines...they could get the job done for a race team that wanted to run ALMS, LMES or any Le Mans effort...and Ed pink has been building engines for more than 45 years...long before Methanol became the fuel of choice in US racing (for safety reasons)...he'd know how to convert that engine back to a gasoline-fueled powerplant...

$25,000-$35,000 per engine HAS to be cheaper than a Judd lease....

That's relatively inexpensive power.....

Maybe that's why the Chrysler LMP in 2001 was powered by a derivative of the MOPAR sprint car engine...

BTW...the specs for that engine are on Mulsanne Mike's site...

Are you reading this, Henri?????

I think you can get the power you need for less $$$ than a Judd lease....

As a note to this, I am pretty sure that a complete sprint car engine has a wet sump oiling system and a single 4 barrel intake manifold. Converting to a dry sump, the associated accesory drives, and converting to fuel injection would add an easy 15,000 dollars to that figure. Also the sprinters are only restricted by carb size, the retuning for the ACO required restrictors would mandate a completely different cam profile (and probably converting to a roller cam instead of flat tappet, hence more money).

Further, it should probably be mentioned that the Panoz elan engine and the Yates unit are the same engine, a ford windsor small block architecture, the differences are in the details (intake tract, porting, cam profiles). Robert

[Tim Northcutt]

To Noise Boy 2:

They run dry sumps and they are all fuel injected....The only major racing series that runs carbs now is NASCAR....

With the items as part of the package they run $40,000 for the very top drawer motor you could buy from the top builders...

I'm aware that the Yates and the Elan are based on teh same block...but those details created more horsepower for the Yates engine...read it from posts by one of the R&S team members who posted on another site/forum the details on why the Yates was the far better package than the Elan from their testing...

[Tim Northcutt]

Another note....various Sprint vcar engines are already built with teh roller cams as well...

Look them up....I did before I proposed it as an option...

[billnchristy]

So what is up with the Lincoln that Dyson used in the R&S...what the heck is it based on and it seemed pretty quick, considering...I believe they got 5th in DC.

[Fab]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
Are you reading this, Henri?????

No, he's looking for €€€ !

Poor (!) Henri...

[The Badger]

Originally posted by billnchristy
So what is up with the Lincoln that Dyson used in the R&S...what the heck is it based on and it seemed pretty quick, considering...I believe they got 5th in DC.

As far as I know the Lincoln is pretty much the same beast as the Ford that Dyson raced before , just the badge .....

[Dauntless]

Tim is right about sprint car engines. (I still have my SBC 360 (5.9L)sprint engine from the 80's). They are dry-sumped, roller cammed, use mechanical methanol injection, and have single-plane intakes. They also weigh 200 kg and are MUCH taller, longer and wider than dedicated racing engines like the Judd.

And therein lies their greatest drawback. Since ACO and FIA restrict engine intakes so that all the engines in the class produce approximately the same power, the smallest and lightest engine package that can meet the class' output has an enormous advantage.

North Americans here will recall that Indy allowed 360 CID normally aspirated stock-block engines as an alternative to the nearly universal 2.65 turbocharged engines from Cosworth, Ilmor, etc. Yet, in all the decades that rule was in effect, I can't recall a SINGLE 360 NA engine qualifying for the race. Its inherent disadvantages overwhelmed its power making potential.

These same disadvantages mean that under current and projected rules dedicated racing engines will enjoy a solid packaging and engineering advantage in prototypes and other space limited race cars.

[gsmith2424]

Originally posted by The Badger
As far as I know the Lincoln is pretty much the same beast as the Ford that Dyson raced before , just the badge .....

I think Ford wanted Dyson to race it as a Lincoln. They wanted this for they could say that they were racing with Cadillac.

[Tim Northcutt]

To Dauntless:

I agree with you to an extent....

The MOPAR V-8 that the Chrysler LMP had in it weighed 170 kg. -- not light, but it was effective...I don't know the weight of the Elan engine to compare it...but that sprinter-derived engine fit pretty well into the Dallara chassis....at 170 kg. it's about 35 kg. heavier than a Judd....and a sprinter's architecture is wider than the Ford pushrod the Elan is based on, but not much...

Mike has the specs & dimensions on the MOPAR V-8 on his site...

On the Stock Blocks in Champ Cars (for the record):

Mike Mosely (with Gurney's AAR team) put a stock block Chevy on the outside of the front row at Indy in the early 1980s (had a 75 cent part break that put him out of the race) and the following week at Milwaukee went from "Worst to First" to win the Rex Mays 150 going away....He also led the Michigan 500 by nearly a lap when he missed a shift comeing out of the pits on his last stop of the day and blew the engine or he would have won one leg of the old "500 Triple Crown" that year...no one was close to him all day...

Another note....in that same era a guy named Roger Rager qualified 9th at Indy with a stock block that they pulled out of an old school bus in a junk yard in Brownsburg, Indiana, and built it up for racing...talk about shoestring budgets!!!!

I'm sure that the weight (but it may not be much heavier than an Elan) and the architecture are in fact drawbacks to this option...but when I constantly read about how "high priced" sportscar racing is, and how expensive competitive engines are, I fell that this option (even with its drawbacks) is a dirt cheap way to get excellent power....

I'm just "thinking outside the box"....and it's not like this option hasn't been tried...the Chrysler LMP finished 4th at LM in 2001 powered by an engine derived from what I am suggesting...

[gttouring]

here here Tim- many engineers are looking for new answers and many manager are looking for new yound talent, when the old dogs now how to hunt, and the tried and true is such for a reason...
out of curiosity how much is a viper racing V10, and a Vette 7.0 V8-why haven't rebadged or modded verisons of these been used?

[Dauntless]

Tim, thanks for the correction!

As I said, as far as I know, no 360 ever made the field. I'm happy to be wrong in this case. I have followed the 500 from the early 60's, yet did not know of AAR or Roger Rager making the field with a normally aspirated engine.

I'm also impressed to see that MOPAR were able to get their engine down to 170 kg. They must have chucked the block up in the 6-axis CNC cutter for days at a time to shave that much weight off of it...

I guess that got them up to "the best of the rest!"

Gotta run!

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
The MOPAR V-8 that the Chrysler LMP had in it weighed 170 kg. -- not light, but it was effective...

Although ultimately not effective enough.
So, if there are all these alternatives out there, why is it we don't see any of them in the ALMS (or: didn't; right now there are hardly any cars there to take up these engines).

[Tim Northcutt]

Well, it was the "Best Non-VAG" that year....and apparently for less money than the Judd....

the Chrysler LMP finished higher than any Judd in teh field,, and the money they saved was probably spent on improving another aspect of the car...

Concerning your question:

I don't know....that is the ultimate question I've been asking....

On one hand, you would assume that others have considered it as an option and discared it for whatever reason...

But on the other, somebody with that Chrysler LMP program asked "why not"....they didn't follow the paradigm that "to be fast, you must buy this engine, or that chassis, etc." in sportscar racing...

The looked outside of the box and took a big step...could've failed miserably...but it didn't...

They finished 4th in their "First and Only Try" at Le Mans....and they spent far less than VAG to get to where they were in that first year....

To me, that is impressive for a first outing....if the standard for success is higher than that, then everyone but Audi and Bentley have failed miserably in recent years....

NOTE: I believe that the reason why there wasn't a second year with that engine was because Daimler Benz had bought into Chrysler, and felt that their racing budget and focus should go elsewhere...

or the Marketing guys in Detroit said "We're selling our cars and trucks in the USA....and the series that draws the most fans and attention here is NASCAR...Our money is spent best on that program...wins there will help our visibility whee our buyers are...not by winning a big race in France."

I'm thinking about doing a little digging and presenting what I find out as a "How to Race in ALMS on a Shoestring, Yet Still Be in the Hunt"

I've got ideas on how to go about it....you'l know when I'm done when the thread surfaces...

Sorry to have sidetracked this Thread:

I want someone -- anyone -- to run the GV5 next year....it also is another possible way to get to the next level, provided someone will take the time to race it and try to achieve it's full potential....

The engine has not had that opportunity....it deserves that opportunity....

Personally, I think it ultimately will be a better sportscar engine than the GV4....

But we'll never know until someone decides to commit to it and to race it for a few seasons....

[gttouring]

people need to change their thinking- a more openmind set- we see the same trouble in F1, if one team does it then it appears on other cars, (exhaust hats, and exits above the fairing, now with long scoops underneath the hot air, but why? only ferrari found it out first-check racecar engineering this month.) Audi in 2001 and even presently with the Bentley use the best new Tech- that of direct injection. the best of the rest for the Mopar is no small feat in the face of VAG, so I say it would hold well over a season perhaps. Importantly to note that combining known ideas and old may work very well- How would the Mopar fair with direct inject? or even common rail for petrol instead of diesel? sure some work to heads must be done, but they go crazy carving up aluminium and using flow benches to get it right, it wouldn't be much harder to stick in the injector center of the valves or next to them. Also any features of the Audi chassis beating on the little dallara mopar team (wasn't it oreca?) Audi is seriously refined and incredible of a car, matched with that power plant- the first year for the D-M is pretty good. I still am confident in that program if it were to be developed more.

[Tim Northcutt]

A former boss of mine (he moved on to bigger & better things...I pulled out my Crayons and drew race tracks on airport runways...)
had a saying that has stuck with me for years:

"When everybody is thinking alike, then someone is not doing enough thinking...."

Taking a different approach or trying something different is how one can ultimately succeed...

I proposed this because many feel that "money" is the big hurdle for teams to race in the ALMS....

Sure...racing isn't cheap....but if you can get sufficient power to finish 4th at Le Mans with an engine that one could possibly buy for $25,000-$40,000 each...compared to an expensive turbo or a potentially expensive engine lease....then those who say "I can't afford it" aren't looking hard enough for alternatives that will let them race....

THis option surely isn't a "high-tech" or a "cutting edge" solution...it's just a plain, old-fashioned "get the most for your money" solution for teams that others could or should consider...

[cybersdorf]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
I'm thinking about doing a little digging and presenting what I find out as a "How to Race in ALMS on a Shoestring, Yet Still Be in the Hunt"

Please do; it sounds like a fascinating subject. Especially now that the ALMS is in desperate need of LMP runners, and up against a rival series that is cost-effective, if nothing else.

[Tim Northcutt]

You can bet it'll have one of these modified sprinter engines in it

[Tim Northcutt]

To Dauntless:

I didn't post that info on the Indy Cars to correct you....but I guess if you live in a city that hosts an event that takes up most of an entire month, you tend to have a fairly good memory of unusual things that happen...

I considered the AAR sucess with that stock block (despite the fact that the team is run by my favorite -- Dan Gurney) to be quite unusual, given the teams they competed against back then...

[Fab]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
Well, it was the "Best Non-VAG" that year....and apparently for less money than the Judd...

The Judd was less reliable that it is now. And the weather was gruesome in 2001. Not that it takes anything to the Chrysler Mopar performance, but the same chassis was more impressive in 2002 with the Judd...

[Fab]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
Taking a different approach or trying something different is how one can ultimately succeed...

I proposed this because many feel that "money" is the big hurdle for teams to race in the ALMS....

If we let on the side the "bad years", or the "non competitive years", I can see only one achievement in an "alternate" approach : Jean Rondeau in 1980.

Yves Courage almost did it in 1995, but Mario was in the car...

I think someone could do it again, but not with factories as Audi around...