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Old 14 Dec 2017, 08:01 (Ref:3786964)   #126
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Thank you Richard.

As you say, it seems like an Internet Explorer problem, tried Chrome as you suggested and the images are all resized! Magic!
Brilliant! I've been trying to avoid using chrome as some of the stuff I use doesn't seem to work as well as IE, but it looks like it's going to be my go-to application for ten-tenths from now on!
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Old 14 Dec 2017, 08:19 (Ref:3786965)   #127
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No problems with Microsoft Edge here. Those still using IE need to switch over to Edge. IE is dying (being strangled to death slowly by Bill).
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Old 14 Dec 2017, 10:21 (Ref:3786983)   #128
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No problems with Microsoft Edge here. Those still using IE need to switch over to Edge. IE is dying (being strangled to death slowly by Bill).
The problem is that my work computer runs Windows 7, so I'm stick with IE...
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Old 14 Dec 2017, 11:09 (Ref:3786997)   #129
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Thanks for the input guys, Admin is aware of the issue, and confirms that it's Internet Explorer.

It's being looked into, but in the mean time, the site and images will appear correctly in other browsers.

SBF
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Old 14 Dec 2017, 11:47 (Ref:3787003)   #130
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Thanks for the input guys, Admin is aware of the issue, and confirms that it's Internet Explorer.

It's being looked into, but in the mean time, the site and images will appear correctly in other browsers.

SBF
Thanks for your efforts, it's not a life or death issue, but just gets a bit frustrating at times! As others have said, there are ways around it anyway by using a different browser.
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Old 30 Dec 2017, 20:36 (Ref:3789854)   #131
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Don’t worry, my Lord, I have a cunning plan...

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...for-new-season

Dear Lord. So if the 2018 engine isn’t any good, it’s OK! They’ll just stick this year’s lump in the back. Franz Tost must be very reassured.

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Old 31 Dec 2017, 04:48 (Ref:3789926)   #132
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"Honda, you wouldn't recognise a cunning plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord singing 'Cunning engine plans are here again'.".
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Old 1 Jan 2018, 02:05 (Ref:3790063)   #133
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Honda's plan. "Instead of flushing this one like we've flushed the previous, we are going to polish the 2017 one for 2018. Then if the polished one doesn't work we'll just give Toro Rosso the unpolished one while we keep buffing!
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Old 1 Jan 2018, 08:27 (Ref:3790084)   #134
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Honda's plan. "Instead of flushing this one like we've flushed the previous, we are going to polish the 2017 one for 2018. Then if the polished one doesn't work we'll just give Toro Rosso the unpolished one while we keep buffing!
That's pretty much the way I see their statement too.
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Old 1 Jan 2018, 18:48 (Ref:3790159)   #135
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I can see this being a terrible season in the making for them if that is the case
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Old 1 Jan 2018, 23:11 (Ref:3790215)   #136
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I can see this being a terrible season in the making for them if that is the case
they could be just managing expectations, or sandbagging (faint hope)...
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Old 2 Jan 2018, 12:55 (Ref:3790299)   #137
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Regarding the topic brought up here...

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152274

Which is that Honda is keeping the door open to using the 2017 engine at the start of the new season if the 2018 is not ready. My thoughts is... smart idea.

Clearly the best option is to have a solution ready for 2018 testing using the 2018 engine. But given they were developing the 2017 engine up until the end of last year and likely still didn’t have solutions for various issues at the end of 2017, why risk a repeat of last year and bring something that might be worse than what they ended the previous year with?

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Old 2 Jan 2018, 13:46 (Ref:3790303)   #138
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Which is that Honda is keeping the door open to using the 2017 engine at the start of the new season if the 2018 is not ready. My thoughts is... smart idea.

Clearly the best option is to have a solution ready for 2018 testing using the 2018 engine. But given they were developing the 2017 engine up until the end of last year and likely still didn’t have solutions for various issues at the end of 2017, why risk a repeat of last year and bring something that might be worse than what they ended the previous year with?
Presumably that means that the 2017 and 2018 engines have a common layout as far as the mounting points are concerned and there isn't a huge difference in the overall packaging requirements of the engine (you don't want to be in a situation where you need 2 different tubs depending on which engine variant you're going to use). Also you'd have to assume that the weight distribution of the engines are the same (otherwise you can't really optimise the chassis design).

By the end of 2017 the engine was less unreliable but still down on power - so if the 2018 engine is a no go then we know that Torro Rosso will struggle. How bad would the 2018 engine have to be to not even try and use it? Let's say that it's on a par with the Renault unit for power but is has a 50% chance of blowing up - would you go with that or stick to an engine that has a 20% chance of blowing up but you know you're giving up the power?

If they have to stick the 2017 engine in the car then that's a(nother) huge failure on the part of Honda. If that 2018 engine doesn't deliver either a significant increase in power or a massive increase in reliability then you really do have to wonder exactly what the hell Honda have been doing.
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Old 2 Jan 2018, 14:12 (Ref:3790308)   #139
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It does sound as though they are going for an evolution of the now more reliable 2017 engine rather than a trying to come up with something new, within the homologation rules.

It may also mean that they are going go very close to the wire on producing the definitive 2018 engines and so perhaps only having one available for each car in Aus, with the 2017 engine in the crate as a back up hoping that they don't need to use it and have it count as one for the season.
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Old 2 Jan 2018, 15:13 (Ref:3790321)   #140
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Was the achilles heel of the engine not traced to a dodgy oil tank design, that ultimately was restricted on installation space within the McLaren chassis? That led to vibration issues. Or something similar.
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Old 2 Jan 2018, 15:31 (Ref:3790323)   #141
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Was the achilles heel of the engine not traced to a dodgy oil tank design, that ultimately was restricted on installation space within the McLaren chassis? That led to vibration issues. Or something similar.
That was stated, but it was all the way back in February. Surely they would've updated it to eliminate that?
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Old 2 Jan 2018, 20:39 (Ref:3790359)   #142
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Presumably that means that the 2017 and 2018 engines have a common layout as far as the mounting points are concerned and there isn't a huge difference in the overall packaging requirements of the engine (you don't want to be in a situation where you need 2 different tubs depending on which engine variant you're going to use). Also you'd have to assume that the weight distribution of the engines are the same (otherwise you can't really optimise the chassis design).
I think tub mounting points and event weight distribution (at least at the point of tires) is set by the rules. The questions are things like plumbing of ancillary stuff that would be the big impact. I am hearing that the 2018 might be slightly larger (getting away from some of the crazy packaging compromises imposed by McLaren), so if the 2017 is slightly smaller then it may not be as big of issue when it comes to impacts to aero design (thought process is that TR should be designing the car around the 2018 footprint which may be larger, so if they need to use 2017 engine for a period of time, it "might" fit within the confines of the 2018 footprint). However... make no mistake about it. It would be work to switch between the two engines. Thankfully short term usage of the 2017 engine is "Plan B" and not "Plan A".

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How bad would the 2018 engine have to be to not even try and use it?
Given the fiasco of last year could anyone seriously consider moving forward with the 2018 if they didn't have confidence in it having reliability that is close to the 2017 engine? I say no. Honda received so much flack I can't imagine they would want to go through out of the box reliability issues again (i.e. using a 2018 engine that is not ready). Sure the 2018 engine will have its own issues that will need to be addressed, but I expect the 2018 engine probably has a set number of tests and performance goals it has to meet before they use it. If it doesn't meet those goals, then "Plan B" until the 2018 unit is ready. To be honest... I would be surprised if we don't see the 2018 engine in the first race.

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If they have to stick the 2017 engine in the car then that's a(nother) huge failure on the part of Honda. If that 2018 engine doesn't deliver either a significant increase in power or a massive increase in reliability then you really do have to wonder exactly what the hell Honda have been doing.
My view is the opposite. See comments above. As to "what have they been doing". I assuming working hard. But given there was still issues unresolved at the end of 2017 who is to say those have been resolved? Also it is expected that some parts of the engine were getting a redesign as it was felt some of what existed in the 2017 couldn't be fixed "as is". Regardless, the 2018 is an evolution of the 2017 engine. While they are missing power, reliability was the larger issue.

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It does sound as though they are going for an evolution of the now more reliable 2017 engine rather than a trying to come up with something new, within the homologation rules.
Given the token system is gone, they could do a 100% redesign. I think the more limiting factor is not homologation, but rather given a limited number of engines over the course of a season, how many different development "specs" can they release in 2018. Regardless, is my understanding they feel the 2017 engine is a good development basis, so 2018 will be an evolution.

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Was the achilles heel of the engine not traced to a dodgy oil tank design, that ultimately was restricted on installation space within the McLaren chassis? That led to vibration issues. Or something similar.
It is/was more than just the oil tank. The oil tank was likely something that was simulated but not fully tested (if it could even be fully tested as the issues were present at high G-loads). It's my understanding the "slosh" mechanics can't be 100% reliably modeled via computer simulations. So they probably "thought" the solution was OK, but in practice it wasn't. I think it has starvation issues in some specific conditions. Based upon real world testing, the issues was discovered and fixed early on. The vibration issue was unrelated to the oil tank and is thought to have been an unexpected dynamic interaction issue between the engine and drivetrain. I suspect that is been (or is mostly) addressed. At this point I think the problem has been chasing combustion efficiency to the level of the other players (i.e. power) as well as solving the reliability issues of the MGU-H (stop swapping engines and taking penalties). I think the MGU-H is where the redesign is happening. Of which I suspect is mostly around the housing, cooling and lubrication side of things.

Richard

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Old 2 Jan 2018, 21:23 (Ref:3790365)   #143
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So Honda have a back-up plan if something goes wrong. Their not expecting it to go wrong and it would be far from ideal if it does, but they have a back-up plan.

Fair enough.
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Old 2 Jan 2018, 21:45 (Ref:3790367)   #144
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I think it could be a tough season for them, but we’ll see if they need the backup plan
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Old 2 Jan 2018, 21:53 (Ref:3790371)   #145
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Shame the backup plan is a previous plan that has previously failed.
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Old 2 Jan 2018, 22:08 (Ref:3790375)   #146
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Yes, it would be far from ideal.
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Old 2 Jan 2018, 22:50 (Ref:3790379)   #147
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Shame the backup plan is a previous plan that has previously failed.
How so? Previous plan was to re-engineer the entire engine and then use it at the start of the season even when it had clearly not been well tested...
with no backup plan at all?

Clearly having to have a backup plan is unfortunate.

I think the "failure" of the 2017 engine was in it's form at the start of the season and not the end. To be clear, I am not saying it was in fine condition at the end either. The 2017 engine still had unresolved reliability issues at the end of 2017. Also, I wonder how many resources are being diverted to allow Plan B to be a viable option? As mentioned above, I tend to think that they will not need to do use the 2017 engine.

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Old 3 Jan 2018, 08:54 (Ref:3790428)   #148
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Well the backup plan is the 2017 engine. The 2017 engine is by far the worst engine on the grid. To me, that's a failed plan.

Plan A - make the 2018 engine decent

If it isn't decent then move to Plan B. Plan B is use the failed engine from last year.

Doesn't fill me with confidence.
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Old 3 Jan 2018, 10:32 (Ref:3790440)   #149
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Well the backup plan is the 2017 engine. The 2017 engine is by far the worst engine on the grid. To me, that's a failed plan.

Plan A - make the 2018 engine decent

If it isn't decent then move to Plan B. Plan B is use the failed engine from last year.

Doesn't fill me with confidence.
Pretty much this.

If the new engine isn't powerful or reliable enough plug in the old engine - that isn't powerful or reliable enough.

Surely the new engine must be at least more reliable or more powerful? They can't have built a worse engine surely?

I can see why you might say it's prudent to have a backup - but that does imply a lack of faith in the new engine. You don't see Mercedes saying anything about using last years engine - all their talk is of pushing towards 1000bhp. Renault said their problems towards the end of last year was aggressive development - they've not said they're going to turn the engines back down - they're pushing forwards. Ferrari haven't said much - but again I doubt they're looking backwards. In F1 if you're not developing, pushing the boundaries, changing, evolving then you're going to be nowhere. Honda have to get the new engine right.
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Old 3 Jan 2018, 11:16 (Ref:3790446)   #150
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The only thing in their favour is the Honda engine seemed to get more reliable towards the end of last season, other than that they probably have work to do
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