UK Grid Size League Tables

[R59]

Reaches for the afore utilised scratched record.....

Scrap the ruddy lot, all championships (except those where manufacturers pay for the privilege of their own series), and start again - utilising the MSA Blue Book (as it was once written) as the basis for all things henceforth.

Production Saloons (that means standard)
Modified Saloons (that means not standard!)
Special Saloons (cover one eye, squint with the other - yep, it's one of those)(and Al, I mean saloons, not F1/5000 cars with plastic bodies fitted over the top)

Production Sports Cars
Modified Sports Cars
Special GT's

Formula Ford
Formula Three
Formula Two
Formula 5000
Formula Libre (for anything else that you've been foolish enough to buy!)

There, that's simplified it.

If you want to run them on a "per circuit", or regional basis, wonderful - then we could have local, regional, national, and UK champions, which fills the need for the pot hunters, or those who don't want to traipse around the countryside in search of a race.

So simple, Max Mosely could come up with it!

And it'd work.

The only downside would be the plethora of people who would get humpty over it because their pet series was knocked on the head.

It wouldn't happen though. The European Convention of Human Rights would actually stop the MSA from doing it. If Al and me wanted to set up a series (not a championship) running cars powered by Chevy V8's, there's nothing they can do to stop us - providing we meet the safety rules, and pay for the track time (the last bit being the most important).

The sport, is, I fear, doomed by the empire builders intent on starting new championships hell bent on duplicating something that already exists, but with a twist of lemon, and a different umbrella in the glass.

[Woolley]

Couldn't agree more, in fact I posted a very similar suggestion a good five years or so ago. As someone who spends a fair amount of time standing trackside wondering where all the cars are, that's a very useful guide for where I might want to spend my time.

[nyssa7]

I'm guessing these are 2009 figures as I was trying to figure the LMA Euro Saloon average for 2008 and came out with a much higher figure - 32 for 2008

So then I checked 2009, grids of 23, 25 and 36 so far = 28 average. But with the first round being a double header at Anglesey, this may distort the figures, as would taking the average so early on in the season. Can only speak for LMA, but suspect many other series have a similar problem where drivers just haven't got their cars ready to race yet from winter refurbs? Would be interested to see how these figures pan out over the season

Are they taken from race grid sizes or qually numbers - anyone who has paid entry fee should be counted regardless of whether their car makes the actual race start

[snowen250]

Hmm this is a very interesting thread.
Now this year i have been to all but 2 meets at Brands and found the grids and racing to be good. However, looking at some series i have found it hard to understand why they have not merged, or why the exist at all.
I am a big fan of BMWs especially those heavily modified for Britcar, but to see just 6 of them racing round, spread out and hardly exciting at Brands was a let down.
It strikes me that somtimes series are being born for people to race their own pet cars. The CSL cup, is an example of this not working, the MR2s and PBMW is an example of it working well.
Why not have it so new championships must run as a class within a similar one first? Therefore the CSLs could have run with Britcar, or if they wished for shorter races within somthing such as DMN or LMA. If the new class/series becomes more popular and infringes on spaces for the primary series, then give it its own race.
This both increases some grids and removes races that see spectators and marshalls getting bored.
One other point is that i see a alck in variety more and more now, is it just me or have "allcomer end of day" races now become few and far between. Often one make or one type races seem to dominate.
Oh and please, no more series for Radicals? Yeh? Cheers, theres only so much of my book i can read
All the best to all, i think the club scene in the UK is actually very strong, hopefully this view will be supported after my trip to Brands this weekend as well
Simon

[andy97]

I must admit that i think that this is a very useful and interesting list. For a start it allows interested competitors to actually see what they might be getting in to, but like all stats, thats never the whole story and further investigation/ visits to race paddocks/ talks to co-ordinators and competitors is always worthwhile! I would like to point out a couple of things about at least one series that I am aware of and that's the CSCC's "Swinging Sixties" series. In contrast to the average grid number of 35 given, I strongly suspect that it might be far higher than that as at most races this year the series has been over subscribed with 6-10 reserves (the reserves usually get to race with Future Classics). At Brands Hatch and at Oulton the entry has been so oversubscribed that its had to be split in to two seperate races (basically an up to 2 litre grid and an over 2 litre grid). the table can't easily reflect this success. However, I do look forward to further updates.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by snowen250

One other point is that i see a alck in variety more and more now, is it just me or have "allcomer end of day" races now become few and far between. Often one make or one type races seem to dominate.
Simon

The CSCC always run allcomer "Sports Vs Saloon Challenge" races at the end of the day in their meetings. I am looking forward to dicing with a few Jag saloons in my Fiat Uno this weekend at Oulton! These races are good value for the competitor as, if you have already raced that day, you can get a second race for just £95.

[snowen250]

Yup Andy i know they do, i just wish more did!
Simon

[Stacy]

Chaps,

There will be an update to this in the next week or so. Please could I ask that if you have constructive views on how some of these series should be split/merged/presented then do PM me and let me know (if you haven't been very explicit here) - or forever hold your..

Many thanks

Stacy

[spike8888]

HI
I noticed that the MK1 MR2 series run by Red Dragon Racing was not on your list. Although not a registered MSA championship we regularly get mid 20's entering

[Stacy]

Spike,

Nothing intentional - I don't believe they ran a race prior to the first cut. They will be included in future ones though, and there is one imminent (collating the information now..).

Cheers

Stacy

[AndyF]

I think this is really useful - its a shame to see how some of the traditionally popular series are falling away.

I will be interested to see how numbers change during the season, some championships have already raced at Pembrey for example, and may have had their lowest grid numbers already, while others have that still to come.

[Stacy]

Andy,

Yes I'd expect some movement in the figures over a season, but a successful series will still provide grids regardless of the circuit (within reason). eg Junction 7953 of the M4 doesn't prove too much for everyone, and I do recall being a reserve there for a Group 1 race many years ago in it's heyday.

I don't therefore expect a great deal of movement, but wait to be proven wrong..

S.

[Al Weyman]

Well when and if we get demoted to a series in PHTC and Group 1 we can move the goalposts and change regulations throughout the season to ensure we keep the grid sizes up like other people do.

The hardest thing is keeping up the entrants without being so flexible. When I ran ModProds if I had a tenner for the amount of times guys wanted to enter but something like tyres were incorrect I would be worth a fortune, if it was a series I could have said OK no problem but as it was a championship my hands were tied so just prehaps in your chart you should only show pucker championships and not series because it will give a better portrayal what exactly is happening and as a series will not be getting dropped from championship status (as it is a series not a championship) surely their inclusion is irrelevant.

[Stacy]

Al,

Understand your point, but I am aware of more than one series who have made a conscious decision not to apply for championship status - not because of regs flexibility as they police it as closely as some championships, but because of the ability to take in offers of additional rounds during the year, and not wanting to be tied down by a perceived "overhead".

The league tables have proved something of a surprise success, and I have received positive emails from; Existing competitors, would-be competitors, marshals, organizing clubs and even insurance brokers. For it to retain it's value it needs to holistically reflect UK motorsport.

Stacy.

[Stacy]

One further point, forgot to mention. Opening regs is not IMO a given to increasing grid sizes, you tend to upset the incumbents for a start.

S.

[andy97]

Al, I'm afraid I agree with Stacy, not everyone is interested in "Championships" per se, but just want to go racing in competitive series with like (ish) cars & decent grids. I think it is important to show the state of grids in general in UK motorsport at the moment & not just those that hav championship status, so prospective competitors, marshalls, spectators etc can judge which ones to join/ follow. If someone is interested in a series then they can find out further details as they wish. As a compromise, I suppose Stacy could always add an asterix or something that shows that a particular series has MSA Championship status.

Edited to add - is it possible to put the additional columns in showing average grid sizes for previous years (a lot of work, I know) to show any trends. I also think that the CSCC Swinging Sixties average grid might be higher seeing as at Brands and Oulton this years they actually had so many entries that they ende up splitting the grids in two for two seperate races.

[Stacy]

Andy,

Marking series/championships may have the effect of propagating misplaced assumptions about what that means eg; in terms of regs etc, and the world is not as black and white.

I can think of several series which while not MSA championships do have closely policed regulations, and quietly give out end of season awards for their winningest drivers.

Perhaps marking those where there are "open" regulations actually achieves what we are intending.

S.

[Stacy]

Andy,

You have to draw a line somewhere and as they say, previous success is no guarantee of future success. This is about telling the real picture, right now with numbers. No spin, and no predictions of "jam tomorrow". In that way it's valuable, and for everyone pointing to the temporary loss of drivers/cars, I could point to many in the top ten suffering the same but on a more solid foundation.. The real numbers, right now, are therefore still very meaningful.

With regard to Swinging Sixties I think anything above 30 is in rude health, the precise numbering above that is largely irrelevant?

[Al Weyman]

Al, I'm afraid I agree with Stacy, not everyone is interested in "Championships" per se, but just want to go racing in competitive series with like (ish) cars & decent grids. I think it is important to show the state of grids in general in UK motorsport at the moment & not just those that hav championship status, so prospective competitors, marshalls, spectators etc can judge which ones to join/ follow. If someone is interested in a series then they can find out further details as they wish. As a compromise, I suppose Stacy could always add an asterix or something that shows that a particular series has MSA Championship status.

If this is indeed true and the championship status is not what its cracked up to be although strictly speaking none championships should not tally points or end of season awards (something I disagree with incidently but a fact) then prehaps the MSA is loosing its grip on things. My point for my previous post was to point out that prehaps the chart is a little irrelevant because presumably the reason the msa keep charts is to end certain championships.

[andy97]

Al, I am sure that the MSA do keep charts of grid numbers in order to help decide on Championship status, & where to apply red/ yellow cards etc, however, I do think that for some clubman the lure of championship status is not all its cracked up to be. The members of the club which I race with rejected the suggestion that the club should apply for championship status for several of its series, despite having very healthy grid numbers). It was just seen as too much trouble & inflexible.

The MSA don't seem to publish their own grid number charts, so perhaps this chart is invaluable in allowing the rest of us to judge which series are healthy or not.

[Al Weyman]

Or drive a nail into a struggling championship? I have said it before but what goes around comes around in this game and what can be hot one year can be on the floor the next and visa versa it can only need the tiniest of things to cause it to collapse, bit like my local pub, the landlord and lady made a bad mistake a few moths ago, they sacked a very popular member of staff because she wanted to do less shifts and they banned a popular punter, that pub has never been the same since as half the cliental have deserted it. We pay the MSA to do this so let them do it.

[andy97]

At the end of the day, the info is in the public domain for those with the time and interest in trawling through TSL to find grid numbers. Its not a secret. Stacy & Co have just tabulated the info.

If a series is struggling this year, as opposed to last, then presumably the organisers will have a plan on how to arrest the decline or move forward. They may not even be aware that other series are doing well in comparison. Its not unreasonable in any business to gather competitor information in order to make "investment" decisions.

[Stacy]

I think these points have been made before, but for completeness;

The MSA are interested in championships and not series. The people described who use the lists by definition have a wider interest.

For some reason the MSA have not issued the minutes/decisions from their grid size meetings for the last two seasons.

The "cycle" alluded to is and has always been a very gradual one, taking many years in both directions. No small changes have killed something overnight, only large ones have done that.

S.

[haggispeed]

Has there been any update to the data since May (as shown on the site) Current average for Classic Clubmans for example is showing 14 whereas we believe it to be 17.2 based on those starting qualifying.
I think this is a really valuable tool and as we near the end of the season these numbers are becoming increasingly important.

[Stacy]

Sorry..

Currently traveling and with blackberry only. Will get this sorted on my return..