Saloon car series

[greenamex2]

What is the most important thing for you in a saloon car series?

Is it rules consistency, performance equalisation measures (eg single tyre supplier, selected cars), restricted regulations, open regulations, class structure, circuits visited, atmosphere, entry costs, circuit time etc etc etc.

[Al Weyman]

Some of it depends whether you have an existing car or not and how it fits in. If you are building from scratch you may look at it differently. Shame there is so much diversity across the board.

[COLIN STUBBS]

difficult one denis and im sure i know where your coming from. having been in the classic saloon car club for many many years id say they originally had it right. good set of rules and regulations that are easy to police,cars not so highly modified as to beeing expensive/unreliable.use a control tyre.minimum weight limits.but they became too big and cliqey,bringing in rules to suit certain people,etc.make the cars fit in with other popular series[theres far to many different ones,all with their own regs].what you need is a good club to run it. its no good one man trying to do it all,race,etc and win..... a good club and commitee can thrash out the problems,sort out whats going on and look after the members. give the guys and girls that support it something back.hardly anyone knows how cheap it is to race modprods on toyo tyres.its a damn good series that you can run in and do other series without altering your car much. its a crying shame that its doomed due to small entries and lack of support.or were you coming from somewhere else??

[Al Weyman]

It does'nt have to be doomed just be a little more flexable like the CTRCC has or SCCA in the US.

Now here is an example. As you may know I built my IROC race car to race in ModProds but unfortunately I discovered that it has some basic design faults as a road car and one of the worst problems is a long torque arm that bolts to the rear axle and at the other end to the tail housing of the gearbox. What is meant to happen is as you accelerate the axle twists and attempts to lift the car with the torque arm, it can't so it plants the tyres down and gets good traction. Great so far but for racing there are two problems. One once you put real power through it it tends to snap the gearbox case and two under braking it trys to lift the axles causing absolutely uncontrolable wheel hop that has to be experienced to be believed. Now I have fitted a special torque arm and cross member that completely solves the problem and is sancioned for use by SCCA in the US. If I entered my car in Mod Prods for this reason it would be illegal. When I was running the championship I tried to make exceptions for certian models and it was always chucked out.

Another example. John Warren a Ford dealer and good racer and car preparer wanted to enter a Scopio with the Cosworth V6 engine, only trouble is from the factory they only came with an auto trans unlike the standard 2.8 that came with a manual. All the guy wanted to do was run the manual box from the 2.8 and I was all for it but oh no it was thrown out, everyone getting up in arms, oh he might beat me, cant have that can we, and we lost yet another good competitor for the sake of a bit of flexibility.

If you do not have this flexablity then what happens? There are only certain models that are worth preparing and you get stick in a time warp, example SDI Rovers and Mk 1 Escorts. You must have sensible flexability and I would suggest you have a basic set of rules like you have in the ModProds but invite people to enter with declared mods that they would like to do then decide if you think they are OK or not but be fair and flexable.

[R59]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

What is the most important thing for you in a saloon car series?

Is it rules consistency, performance equalisation measures (eg single tyre supplier, selected cars), restricted regulations, open regulations, class structure, circuits visited, atmosphere, entry costs, circuit time etc etc etc.

Open Saloons meetings seem to get full grids when the price is right.

Does that teach you anything?

[216gti]

Hi all, I'm new to the forum and quite new to racing, as much as entry costs and good track time on a quality circuit are important, if the car doesn't fit, what's the point! It doesn't exactly seem to be a boom time for club racing at present and nobody needs the over zealously policed series out there policing themselves out of existance. MSV seemed to get it right at Brands, the LMA rounds that I did last year had full grids+reserves, also we couldn't get an entry for Coombe last week. I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere, a little flexibility can't hurt, can it?
Colin, do you run a 216 Gti? name rings a bell.
Cheers for now.....Chris

[Al Weyman]

Yeah but do you really want to enter your little 216gti and end up being blown out of the water and probably lapped several times by someone like Rob when he gets his 1300kgs 740bhp Belmont Astra running right, I don't think so. Rules are neccessary to level the playing field or what is the point in turning out, these things put on by MSV etc are fun and good to have a go in and one of the main attraction of course is the price but if you enter two or three on the trot and start to realise you are only there to make up the numbers and give someone else overtaking practice I guarantee the novelty will soon wear very thin.

[Chris Y]

Originally Posted by racing59

Open Saloons meetings seem to get full grids when the price is right.

Does that teach you anything?

Those are obviously non-championship rounds though - it's a little different when you're competing for wins/points.

[Al Weyman]

Exactly, they are a bit of budget fun.

[216gti]

Point taken, but I have only raced in a sports and saloon championship and as such have had to get used to being lapped by 650bhp Stealth (900kgs), 350 bhp V6 Jade, Tiga, all manner of Radicals and by then the Super Tourers coming by seem quite tame by comparison, don't mean to be flippant but it doesn't make it a bad race as there are always 8 or 10 saloons at the back in our race although it does keep you on your toes approaching every apex because if there's not something quick there when you turn in you just know that one will be along in a second! I did try a couple of LMA rounds last year and did enjoy them though as you do not have to drive constantly in the mirrors, ok there are some ex Tourers at the front but at least they only lap you at a sensible rate.
My little 216gti does tend to make up the numbers as it's only little, but it could have comfortably qualified and finished top 8 or 10 out of 30+ in the MSV event at Brands and wouldn't have started last in the open Sports\ GT race and even better with somebody else in it!
All the same I do see your point and would love to race in a series with similar cars, it would be far more fun, any suggestions. I was thinking about the CTCRC but have just seen Colin Stubbs old post about the Rover perhaps not being suitable.
Many thanks for any advice ...Chris

[jonners]

The Castle Combe saloon championship has restrictive regs regarding what you can race and arguments over the technical regs are quite common.

But the series is very popular and that must have something to do with the fact that the drivers don't have to travel all over the place to race.

Ok - some people want to race at all the circuits. Who wouldn't?? I would love to try every circuit I can but it's never going to happen.

Also, a careful look at the regs means that there's less scope for people to say "I've got a certain sort of car already why can't I race?"

It seems to me that this is where the problems start

[stuart05]

216gti - take a look at Classic Sports Car Club Tin Tops series. Very few regs, good diversity of cars to race against, big grids, lots of track time with the 40 minute races and a chance to share the car and split the costs.
The Track and Race Car series is an excellent series too, but if your car is more "standard" you might find Tin Tops a little more comfortable.

[216gti]

Thanks for the replies, I'll look at both of those, the car is original Rover Cup spec. so I'm not sure where it would fit best. What are the entry costs for the 40 min. races with the Tin Tops, they sound good.
Cheers for now...Chris

[Al Weyman]

Check out the new for 06 CTRCC Pre 93's as well as that is going down a storm, also the mOdprods if your car is more developed.

Personally it would bore me to tears racing at the one track week in week out. Variety is the spice of life and no more than in the race scene. This is why I have entered that two race Rockingham all comers for £150, don't know if it will happen yet as have not had any feedback but why not get your entry in for that 216gti as it sounds good value with two 20 minute races and all and I have never been to The Rock and doubt I will with the other championships I am running in so its a good opportuntity also on with a the Thunder Sunday so should be some good racing to watch as well.

[stuart05]

Originally Posted by 216gti

Thanks for the replies, I'll look at both of those, the car is original Rover Cup spec. so I'm not sure where it would fit best. What are the entry costs for the 40 min. races with the Tin Tops, they sound good.
Cheers for now...Chris

We raced at Donington last weekend for £275 which got us 30 mins practise and 40 mins racing. It's obviously a bit more cash to hand over than for a 15 - 20 minute race but with the option of a second driver, the value for money is very good. If the car is Rover Cup spec then you can run in the up to 1600cc class using list 1a or 1b tyres.

[avro]

216GTI, why not continue this year in the LMA Euro Saloons ?

[216gti]

I had wondered about the pre'93 series, it does look ok, the Rock looks good value but the car is in bits at the mo and I'm flat out in work so probably won't make it, I was trying to get out last weekend at Donington with the WRDA but you know the score, earning it has got to come before spending it and while the work is there
Our meetings are mostly D\H'ers with entries around £295ish, giving 2x15min practice and 2x15min +1 lap races. I do like the format as it seems more like a weekend away, (prob because it is) but as we are saying it's the racing that counts so I'll have a look at the regs and try and have a look at a round of each.
Thanks again for the advice, it's nice to get some feedback from people that have done some of these other series. Wish I'd seen 10Tenths before, one of the more sensible forums on the net !

[216gti]

Hi, as I missed the early part of the season there was no point in contesting a championship for points etc. The car was looking a little tired in the paint dept. so plan A is to prep her back into original Dunlop Rover Cup livery and and run with some other early 90's saloons if poss. I enjoyed the LMA's last year and will be doing a few rounds later this year as well.

[greenamex2]

Ahem

[PenelopePitstop]

What is the most important thing for you in a saloon car series?

Value for money, which is why I have not joined a series for a number of years. I don't feel the need to join a club, then join a championship and then pay circa £190.00 for a sprint race & £30.00 a day to rent a garage. When I can get a race for £75.00 or a 2 race weekend for £150.00 or a longer enduro race for £200.00 and usally get allocated a garage! I also get to chose where & when (WHT @ Silverstone in November makes for a shorter winter!) I race rather than charge around the country following a championship calender.

[216gti]

Sorry, a bit new to all this. Is that your very nice Corolla I've seen at Pembrey a couple of times?

[greenamex2]

Yes, although it is not being so nice at the moment.

[COLIN STUBBS]

hi chris[and everyone else]. yep,iv got one of the old 216gti cars. never had so much cheapo fun and excellent racing as iv had in the last year or so. i raced a 3000gt capri for many years and thoroughly enjoyed the post historics.its one of the best series going and in reply to you Al,they were occasionally very flexible with gearboxes[like jags]and it made for a good club.these waivers were only made after deliberation by the commitee and not chucked out by one person.what i meant about the toyo series was that how can any championship hope to survive if it has so few entries? the classics had the same with their 60s cars and look as if they have worked hard and sorted it,but it was touch and go. iv done a bit of LMA and agree with what you say Chris there are some fast cars out there.if we persist in racing tiddlers though we are always going to be watching the mirrors.weekend before last i raced at cadwell sunday and monday. did an enjoyable toyo race [with 1600 class] and the msvr allcomers saloon race monday.qualified it second fastest behind a porsche 924 [saloon]?? and proceeded to lead for two laps,had a brill scrap with some xrs and finished 3rd in 2 races.and....over 60 laps with no mechanical trauma!! ok if some of the faster cars had been reliable id have been well beaten,but they all broke down.

[Alan Cherry]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

What is the most important thing for you in a saloon car series?

Is it rules consistency, performance equalisation measures (eg single tyre supplier, selected cars), restricted regulations, open regulations, class structure, circuits visited, atmosphere, entry costs, circuit time etc etc etc.

1/Cost
2/Circuits - want more than a single circuit to race at, but would prefer not to stay overnight ( apart from foreign trips )
3/Friendliness of other competitors
4/Driving standards - Enjoy the DTRC series, but MAX5's isn't for me
5/ Would be happy to do a one make series -if it could be cheap - doesn't have to be powerful.
6/ The only way to do the above would be to guarentee a certain number of entries, and tack the class on to another series.

re 5 - How about a KA series ( car currently in production but you can pick one up for less than 2k ) Only cam and chip allowed for engine - to bring up to Fiesta Zetec sort of power, Control Road tyres, non adjustable dampers, Ride heights checked at every round - suspension within manufacturers tolerences ( camber etc ) etc - or something similar - any suggestions ? - I reckon you could do it for less than £3.5k including safety equipment
What car would you suggest ?- would have to be cheap enough for the average enthusiast to think they could build one, and cheap enough for any existing racers to be tempted !

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Alan Cherry

What car would you suggest ?- would have to be cheap enough for the average enthusiast to think they could build one, and cheap enough for any existing racers to be tempted !

306 GTi or Saxo VTS for personal preference. It can be done, as the SELOC / Milltek BMW boys have showed.

Most important things for me would be cost, friendliness and having someone to race against, and to an extent location - for example i'm much more likely to commit to a whole season of DTRC next year than Eurosaloons (as an example) because the majority of races are close to home. Less travelling when the bleeding thing breaks (if it ever works again).