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Old 18 Aug 2015, 00:45 (Ref:3566561)   #61
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wolfhound should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I suspect the targeted audience for Honda was not the general puplic but someone a lot closer to its F1 operation.
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Old 18 Aug 2015, 16:35 (Ref:3566699)   #62
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Here is the article

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...ce=mostpopular

However six Honda engine failures for both drivers are difficult to idly step around.
Really they only said they were better than Renault and were looKing at competing with Ferrari.
yeah thats the same article i linked.

again its possible that autosport just jazzed it up but:

Arai suggested the limitations of the MP4-30, which McLaren has updated continuously over the course of the season, masked Honda's engine performance in Hungary, where Arai said the unit was running at full power.

"[The car has] not so good mechanical grip, or aero, compared with Red Bull there is still a big gap," Arai added.


sort of sounds like he is saying more though...like if they dont get the gains he predicted earlier in the article then the fault is with Mclaren.
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Old 18 Aug 2015, 17:34 (Ref:3566712)   #63
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by wolfhound2 View Post
I suspect the targeted audience for Honda was not the general puplic but someone a lot closer to its F1 operation.
I think we are the target audience. The mantra has been "this car is gonna be great when Honda sort the engine out" for a while now. Honda would presumably like to hear us all saying "this car is going to be great when McLaren sort the chassis out" instead.

I can imagine Mr. Arai knows where his engine stands on power, torque, and fuel economy, but can he really be so sure about driveability or energy harvesting?
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Old 19 Aug 2015, 00:14 (Ref:3566821)   #64
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I think we are the target audience. The mantra has been "this car is gonna be great when Honda sort the engine out" for a while now. Honda would presumably like to hear us all saying "this car is going to be great when McLaren sort the chassis out" instead.

I can imagine Mr. Arai knows where his engine stands on power, torque, and fuel economy, but can he really be so sure about driveability or energy harvesting?
If Fred and Jense can't tell him that, then they are clearly paying the wrong people way too much money!
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Old 19 Aug 2015, 00:57 (Ref:3566835)   #65
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Can they say compared with this year's Ferrari and Renault motors specifically?

The comments are clearly supposed to move the focus off Honda, but have they really caught up in every respect or just in the things you can figure out from sound analysis and the like?
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Old 19 Aug 2015, 10:09 (Ref:3566900)   #66
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Mike Harte should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMike Harte should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I think that Arai san has fallen into the same trap that both Ferrari and, more importantly, Renault went into. He is making comments based on the performance of the PSUs whilst they aere being tested on a bench in the workshop. Their true worth is only realised once they are installed in the car, and they are used in the circuit environment.

There is also a strong possibility that Arai san actually meant that with his comments. Rather than criticising the McLaren chassis and bodywork, he was only trying to say let's see if the PSU goes just as well when it's installed.
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Old 19 Aug 2015, 17:44 (Ref:3566961)   #67
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fair point Mike.
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Old 19 Aug 2015, 18:55 (Ref:3566977)   #68
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Originally Posted by pirenzo View Post
I can imagine Mr. Arai knows where his engine stands on power, torque, and fuel economy, but can he really be so sure about driveability or energy harvesting?
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If Fred and Jense can't tell him that, then they are clearly paying the wrong people way too much money!
To the criticism of the drivers... How would they know at this point in time? I am sure they have run it all on the simulators and test rigs, but frankly they have to run the updated Spa spec power unit this weekend on track before they can give accurate and real world feedback.

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I think that Arai san has fallen into the same trap that both Ferrari and, more importantly, Renault went into. He is making comments based on the performance of the PSUs whilst they aere being tested on a bench in the workshop. Their true worth is only realised once they are installed in the car, and they are used in the circuit environment.

There is also a strong possibility that Arai san actually meant that with his comments. Rather than criticising the McLaren chassis and bodywork, he was only trying to say let's see if the PSU goes just as well when it's installed.
Actually that all sums up why I think the quotes in the article was odd. If I was in Arai's shoes, my quotes would have been more like...

"We are bringing a number of power unit changes to Spa and are expecting some real improvements. While simulation and internal testing data looks good, the on track performance is what really matters. Lets see how the entire package works together this weekend."

I really wonder if this all is the first real public crack in the partnership. Especially if the car (complete package) does not have a huge jump forward this weekend. I really hope it does go well for them this weekend.

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Old 20 Aug 2015, 00:24 (Ref:3567050)   #69
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I tend to agree with Richard. There's no point saying anything in public if the message is simply "now let's see how it runs in the car".

Though I agree with Mike on the nature of the potential "trap". Wasn't it Honda who previously had a reputation for being interested only in peak power and not paying enough attention to how drivable the engine was during their previous stint?
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 00:46 (Ref:3567055)   #70
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To the criticism of the drivers... How would they know at this point in time? I am sure they have run it all on the simulators and test rigs, but frankly they have to run the updated Spa spec power unit this weekend on track before they can give accurate and real world feedback.
TBF is was commenting on:

"Arai told AUTOSPORT his company's existing engine was "much better than Renault" during the most recent race in Hungary, and that the upgraded version will take it closer to Ferrari's output."

Jense and Fred drove it in Hungary - they should know where they stand,
the rest from Arai is just dreaming! Let's see what it looks like!

Are Honda trying to court RBR?
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 02:22 (Ref:3567084)   #71
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
TBF is was commenting on:

"Arai told AUTOSPORT his company's existing engine was "much better than Renault" during the most recent race in Hungary, and that the upgraded version will take it closer to Ferrari's output."

Jense and Fred drove it in Hungary - they should know where they stand,
the rest from Arai is just dreaming! Let's see what it looks like!

Are Honda trying to court RBR?
I could be wrong, but I think the Hungary spec was the older spec with mostly reliability improvements and also with the power turned up (they had power turned down previously due to heat rejection issues which impacted reliability). The Spa spec engine is the one with a totally new combustion design and other significant changes. I think a good bit of their mid season tokens were used for this new spec. The Spa spec is an unknown.

But to be fair, I am sure they have been making software changes for each race to improve drivability (which was bad at the start of the season).

Interesting idea regarding RBR! That might be the target audience for the bravado.

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Old 20 Aug 2015, 06:49 (Ref:3567124)   #72
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mikuni should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmikuni should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I wonder if the Honda will sound different and more refined at Spa, after the apparent upgrades.
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 09:35 (Ref:3567161)   #73
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I think a number of things.
1. Honda have been working to improve their (engine) (sorry) PSU.
2. They're feeling a little shame-faced that they've not come straight back in and blitzed everyone else.
3. Mr Arai is countering some of the (very non-McLaren like) criticisms publicly made by Mr Boulier of the Honda PSU package by firing back that the McLaren chassis isn't perfect either.
4. That we will have to wait and see what happens this weekend, but hope that all these claims of improvements are justified and we see Fernando & Jenson closer to the pointy end and enjoying themselves for a whole race distance.
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 18:21 (Ref:3567279)   #74
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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post

sort of sounds like he is saying more though...like if they dont get the gains he predicted earlier in the article then the fault is with Mclaren.
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
I think that Arai san has fallen into the same trap that both Ferrari and, more importantly, Renault went into. He is making comments based on the performance of the PSUs whilst they aere being tested on a bench in the workshop. Their true worth is only realised once they are installed in the car, and they are used in the circuit environment.

There is also a strong possibility that Arai san actually meant that with his comments. Rather than criticising the McLaren chassis and bodywork, he was only trying to say let's see if the PSU goes just as well when it's installed.
Arai also said this: "[Engine] unreliability has meant lots of parts were changed in winter testing and so things like flow-vis and taking data has been done during the season in FP1, due to the unreliability in the winter."

I read that as Honda taking responsibility for their part of the problem.
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Old 20 Aug 2015, 18:28 (Ref:3567283)   #75
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Alonso and Button to get grid penalties as they use their seventh Honda engines of the season.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120370

I don't like these grid penalties. It's not the driver's fault. The team/engine manufacturer should have constructor's points deducted instead.
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