Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising Live Chat  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > National & Club Racing


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 8 May 2017, 07:05 (Ref:3732142)   #1
coppice
Racer
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Australia
Thirsk, North Yorkshire
Posts: 143
coppice should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Cadwell and Code 60

A good club race meeting was spoiled at Cadwell yesterday by the utterly ludicrous Code 60 deployments . It might work in a 2 hour endurance race , but in a 15 minute club race, and deployed after 1 lap for the duration? A complete charade. BRSCC - please bin this silly idea asap .

Stop the race if it's a bad shunt or, if it's less serious .. and here's an idea from the left field , we could maybe have waving flags to alert drivers? Something bright -maybe yellow ? It just might catch on .....
coppice is offline  
Quote
Old 8 May 2017, 17:13 (Ref:3732277)   #2
Dave Brand
Veteran
 
Dave Brand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
England
Hadfield, Derbyshire (UK)
Posts: 6,320
Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!
Utterly ludicrous from whose viewpoint? The drivers', the marshals', the rescue units', the recovery drivers'?

Stop the race? In an ideal world, yes, but the real world is one where timetables are so tight that red flagging a couple of races would have meant that there was no way the programme could have been completed.

Stop a race & you'll lose something like 15 minutes or more by the time all the cars have returned to the pit lane, been sent out on a green flag lap, gridded up & the race started. Of course you must add to that the time taken to deal with the incident, so in most cases the time lost could be equivalent to the time alloted for the race.

As for your snide comments about yellow flags, don't you think they were used? Yellow flags don't magically remove cars which are stranded in a dangerous position or create relatively safe conditions for an incident on or close to the track to be dealt with. If the incident is less serious then it will be dealt with under waved yellows & the hazard board displayed for the rest of the race.

Code 60 provides a quick, simple way of neutralising a race while, compared with the use of a safety car, reducing the number of racing laps lost. Another advantage is that gaps between cars are (or should be) maintained, much fairer than the way they are closed up under the safety car.

Code 60 is all about safety, both for those working trackside in whatever capacity & for the drivers. I don't think anyone who asked for its use at Cadwell this weekend did so frivolously or unnecessarily.
Dave Brand is offline  
__________________
Doing an important job doesn't make you an important person.
Quote
Old 8 May 2017, 18:30 (Ref:3732296)   #3
Lancsbreaker
Veteran
 
Lancsbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
England
Padiham, Lancashire
Posts: 2,302
Lancsbreaker should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridLancsbreaker should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridLancsbreaker should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Not experienced Code 60 yet, though we've bought a GPS speedo to help us to adhere to it if needed, but I can sort of see the irritation expressed if indeed all but the 1st lap of a "race" was run under it. However I've had a look at TSL and although it was deployed a lot, only one of the Fiesta races and one Mazda MX5 Supercup race were badly affected. The Fiesta race seemingly having been aborted after 12 minutes of a 20 minute race -having had 2 laps of Code 60, and the Mazda race being run for all but 3 laps under Code 60. I'm sure drivers in the race felt somewhat frustrated.....

I take the point that times were probably very tight - there appears to have been a somewhat optimistic cramming in of too many poorly supported races to allow much leeway for red-flag incidents.

Really what is needed is a code 60 deployment only for (say) a sector - say two or three marshal posts before the incident until the post incident green flag. Of course if drivers could remove the red mist and actually drive appropriately under waved yellows, it wouldn't be needed at all........
Lancsbreaker is offline  
__________________
Richard Murtha: Back Racing with CSCC, and another first, I've finally done a rolling start!
Quote
Old 8 May 2017, 18:59 (Ref:3732303)   #4
andy97
Veteran
 
andy97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
United Kingdom
Castle Donington
Posts: 3,634
andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The trouble is that, at the moment, very few club racers have a GPS speedo so the 60kph speed is very arbitrary. Is it really safer if some cars are circulating at 70 kph (thinking they are doing 60) and are catching drivers doing 40 kph (thinking they are doing 60).

Until it is mandatory to have a gps speedo in a race car it's pointless, and probably safer to have a safety car.

That has its own frustrations and is unfair, too, but is probably safest for the marshals. If I was a marshal I think I'd rather work in the long gap between the train coming round than the irregular gaps of drivers whose speed I can't be sure of.

Make gps speedo mandatory, with recording, and try again.
andy97 is offline  
__________________
Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy
Quote
Old 8 May 2017, 19:26 (Ref:3732311)   #5
Adam43
Race Official
20KPINAL
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
The Road to Rouen
Posts: 30,926
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Any interruption to a race, especially if it reduces racing time is frustrating for driver who's put much effort into getting there. However, it is understandable as safety is a must.

I guess it wasn't clear it would take 15 minutes to sort and it should have been red flagged. That could potentially have stopped the race and moved it to the end of the day, if there was time left. Which would also have been frustrating.

Is that the issue here? The loss of the race/pointless driving round? Rather than code 60 per se? I guess it is.

The sarcy yellow comment isn't really necessary as it is a given that race control is trying its best for the drivers. Unfortunately experience shows that local yellows don't always have the desired effect.

I like the idea of a kind of local code 60 as suggested by Lancsbreaker. It works at Le Mans, but they have more tech in the cars to aid this. Us clubbies don't have all that (except the odd GPS!). Perhaps we could all invest in some official GPS/signalling/timing/messaging/recording equipment for the cockpit? Based on the transponder reaction, I suspect this wouldn't be popular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy97 View Post
..
That has its own frustrations and is unfair, too, but is probably safest for the marshals. If I was a marshal I think I'd rather work in the long gap between the train coming round than the irregular gaps of drivers whose speed I can't be sure of.

Make gps speedo mandatory, with recording, and try again.
The choice of code 60 and SC (or red) is made based on the type of issue. Either can be used. Code 60 has the advantage for the drivers as it means less time is wasted getting everyone together and the generally longer SC periods. So, when appropriate they are good and tend to be fairer (although not completely fair) than alternatives.

I'm not against some mandatory equipment to help. Unless ridiculously expensive it may be comparable to the cost of the race time it gives back?
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
News just in. Every manufacturer to pull out of every race series ever.
Quote
Old 8 May 2017, 21:28 (Ref:3732332)   #6
Dave Brand
Veteran
 
Dave Brand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
England
Hadfield, Derbyshire (UK)
Posts: 6,320
Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!
I can see the thinking behind partial Code 60, but I'm not sure about the practicalities. For me, one of the good points about Code 60 is that when it's withdrawn every post goes green simultaneously & you're racing straight away - no waiting to overtake until you've crossed the start line. Incidentally, there is no post-incident green flag under Code 60

Judging speed is going to be a problem for cars without speedos. For that reason, on Saturday the Sports 2000s started their practice sessions under Code 60 conditions behind the course car, maybe something other formulae could copy.

An interesting comment from an MX5 driver who pulled off at my post on Sunday. He'd totally legally gained places after a Code 60 restart because he'd seen a marshal who was holding the Code 60 flag reaching for another flag. . . he was anticipating the green flag, the other drivers weren't!
Dave Brand is offline  
__________________
Doing an important job doesn't make you an important person.
Quote
Old 8 May 2017, 21:36 (Ref:3732334)   #7
Adam43
Race Official
20KPINAL
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
The Road to Rouen
Posts: 30,926
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Brilliant, it always pays to know where the marshal posts are and look at them
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
News just in. Every manufacturer to pull out of every race series ever.
Quote
Old 8 May 2017, 21:58 (Ref:3732338)   #8
wolfhound
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Ireland
Posts: 3,094
wolfhound should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Would it be possible to have a GPS speedo in view of an on board camera? That should solve any issues with code 60.
wolfhound is offline  
Quote
Old 8 May 2017, 22:49 (Ref:3732340)   #9
MGDavid
Veteran
 
MGDavid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
England
Berkshire
Posts: 3,047
MGDavid has a real shot at the podium!MGDavid has a real shot at the podium!MGDavid has a real shot at the podium!MGDavid has a real shot at the podium!MGDavid has a real shot at the podium!
I don't accept the need for GPS speedos or any other sort, that would be just another rule that lines suppliers' pockets.
How do drivers currently adhere to pitlane speed limit? Use the same method.
Simple.
If I need to spell it out, mark the rev counter with the revs at 60 in a relevant gear.
MGDavid is offline  
__________________
a salary slave no more...
Quote
Old 9 May 2017, 06:37 (Ref:3732390)   #10
coppice
Racer
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Australia
Thirsk, North Yorkshire
Posts: 143
coppice should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If Code 60 means that a 15 minute race is devalued (from everybody's perspective ) to a one lap sprint followed by a 13 minute crawl it patently isn't the answer.
Perhaps if yellows had more respect - and there were more evidence of repercussions for those who ignored them - we wouldn't have the problem . Odd that we have managed decades of club racing without code 60 .....
coppice is offline  
Quote
Old 9 May 2017, 16:01 (Ref:3732497)   #11
Dave Brand
Veteran
 
Dave Brand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
England
Hadfield, Derbyshire (UK)
Posts: 6,320
Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by coppice View Post
Odd that we have managed decades of club racing without code 60 .....
"We" managed decades of racing at all levels without safety cars or, indeed all sorts of stuff that we now consider necessary.

Code 60 is NOT the problem; if it had not been available at Cadwell those races would have been neutralised by the use of the Safety Car, resulting in the loss of even more racing laps.

The organising clubs are not philanthropic organisations, they are businesses. To survive a business must make money; the clubs make money by charging their customers, the drivers, for their product, races.

Back in the "good old days", not so many years ago, a typical one-day club meeting would run seven or eight races; now it can be as many as eleven or twelve. Why? Because the cost of running a race meeting is now so high that the clubs are having to spread the cost over more entrants to keep the cost of entry down to something like reasonable (well, actually they are far from reasonable!).

Given the increased number of races to cram into a meeting, the clubs don't have the luxury of having plenty of slack in the timetable to allow for race stoppages so, for better or for worse, incidents which in the past would have caused a race stop are being dealt with on a live track with the race neutralised, be it with the Safety Car or under code 60. By doing that there's a reasonable chance that the programme can be completed without the need to shorten or, even worse, cancel subsequent races.

Code 60 may not be perfect, but it's a real-world solution to a real-world problem.
Dave Brand is offline  
__________________
Doing an important job doesn't make you an important person.
Quote
Old 9 May 2017, 16:38 (Ref:3732505)   #12
coppice
Racer
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Australia
Thirsk, North Yorkshire
Posts: 143
coppice should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
You make good points and I respect them . But Code 60 has the potential to turn a race meeting to a farce - if I'm watching I don't want to pay to see a 40 mph procession and if I were racing I wouldn't be over impressed at taking the time and money to do so only to do most of my race at a slower speed than I drove from Horncastle . Let's see if it gets better - it's a work in progress I guess .....
coppice is offline  
Quote
Old 9 May 2017, 16:53 (Ref:3732511)   #13
fergus_r
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
United Kingdom
Kent
Posts: 436
fergus_r should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by coppice View Post
You make good points and I respect them . But Code 60 has the potential to turn a race meeting to a farce - if I'm watching I don't want to pay to see a 40 mph procession and if I were racing I wouldn't be over impressed at taking the time and money to do so only to do most of my race at a slower speed than I drove from Horncastle . Let's see if it gets better - it's a work in progress I guess .....
Just like running under the Safety Car then (only that takes up MORE time than Code 60).
fergus_r is offline  
Quote
Old 9 May 2017, 17:33 (Ref:3732515)   #14
andy97
Veteran
 
andy97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
United Kingdom
Castle Donington
Posts: 3,634
andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I just don't think it's relevant in 15 or 20 min sprint races.

I do understand very well the time pressures of the organisers but at the moment it's my view that in short races it's a waste of time. As is the safety car.

I can see the validity in 40 min races, BUT organisers need to be confident that all competitors have a verifiable means of monitoring speed otherwise it has the potential to be dangerous and is certainly meaningless, as the gaps will not be consistent.
andy97 is offline  
__________________
Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy
Quote
Old 9 May 2017, 18:19 (Ref:3732518)   #15
Adam43
Race Official
20KPINAL
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
The Road to Rouen
Posts: 30,926
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
But the alternative is a SC and then the gaps just disappear. Or, as I had once, grow because someone couldn't keep up. You could have the same with code 60, but generally it is a just a little better with code 60. With a SC I once got stuck in the pits too, ruined my race, but ultimately I was just unlucky and race control had to neutralise the race.

Yes, it's all not ideal. But there is a reason for having these best solutions.

To Dave Brand's point, we could pay more for our races so they don't have to have as each race and can be more relaxed to this kind of thing?
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
News just in. Every manufacturer to pull out of every race series ever.
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
vB code Red Announcements and Feedback 3 16 Oct 2002 17:20
Color code prakt Formula One 17 16 Jul 2002 14:03
vB Code EvilPumpkin Announcements and Feedback 2 26 Jun 2002 15:44
code 3? botsquad ChampCar World Series 4 9 Sep 2000 16:38


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2016 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.