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Old 9 May 2017, 23:33 (Ref:3732552)   #16
275 GTB-4
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275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Just a comment (from someone who has been part of a team running a very busy race schedule)

Once a Code 60 is called the aim in Race Control should be...
A. Quickly clear the problem,
B. Get the cars off the track (dummy grid or otherwise, or a holding area, or the pits),
C. Send the next group out ASAP.
D. Reschedule the original group for another slot, and if necessary at a reduced race time (10 instead of 15 minutes) which is better then slowly circulating...yes?
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Old 10 May 2017, 06:16 (Ref:3732577)   #17
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So what's happening in racing these days? I started racing in 1982, we didn't have safety cars, Code 60 and I don't actually remember many red flags. Is there any reason to suggest that crashes are more severe than in those days? Are the drivers less disciplined under yellow flags despite the expensive "training" course they have to go through which we didn't have?

I realise this makes me sound an old fart, but the circuits are so much safer these days so why so many race interruptions?

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Old 10 May 2017, 06:22 (Ref:3732581)   #18
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I suspect the standards of safety and what is considered acceptable has increased. Making that 0.1% chance a 0.01% chance.
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Old 10 May 2017, 07:13 (Ref:3732597)   #19
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Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4 View Post
Just a comment (from someone who has been part of a team running a very busy race schedule)

Once a Code 60 is called the aim in Race Control should be...
A. Quickly clear the problem,
B. Get the cars off the track (dummy grid or otherwise, or a holding area, or the pits),
C. Send the next group out ASAP.
D. Reschedule the original group for another slot, and if necessary at a reduced race time (10 instead of 15 minutes) which is better then slowly circulating...yes?
Don't forget this is car racing in the UK. We have to send the course car out for a drive around after most/all sessions (dependent on organising club), every last marshal and vehicle must be clear of circuit before starting the green flag lap (for some organisers every last vehicle must be clear before even releasing onto the grid!). Run the green flag lap behind the safety car or with yellow flags while sweeping or tows are carried out, the red lights should go out when the last vehicle or marshal is clear of circuit.

If organsing clubs got on with it from the start (rather than when they are 25 minutes down at 5pm in the afternoon with a planned finish 5 minutes from curfew) they would find there is much more time available for stoppages. The drivers briefing should not be 20 minutes before qualifying so they cannot run early, there should be no note in the programme saying they can only run 20 minutes ahead, the lunchbreak should not be extended due to running ahead in the morning, they should just get on with it. A timetable without race start times does this well!

Go and see how Thundersport GB (Or BEMSEE to a slightly lesser degree) organise motorcycle racing. It's the way to do it.


Code 60 has issues with drivers not knowing when it is going to be displayed or withdrawn. This could be resolved by a board/flag signal 5 seconds before deployment and withdrawal - just like the '0' board during BSB safety cars.

Code 60 works very well in qualifying. It is safer than safety car - no idiot drivers hammering round to catch up with the train, in particular in races with pit stops.
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Old 10 May 2017, 12:45 (Ref:3732653)   #20
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The Code 60 is in my opinion a complete joke, on Sunday I was a 'speccie' @ Cadwell and saw it being used for the first time, nothing I saw impressed me and I wouldn't want to use it for several reasons:

In one of the Fiesta races the field definitely 'joined up' under the flag.

In another (again Fiestas) drivers thought that their slick tyres were getting cold and so were weaving a lot, now whether that warms the tyres up is subjective but weaving like that leads to more accidents.

Now how about a race leader having a good race, pulling away from the field when on the whim of a Clerk of the Course the race is 'neutralised' he has no idea more than anyone else when the race is going back 'live' and he may get 'jumped', especially if the Marshals are seen swapping flags as described above, I saw that myself on the Start Line.

At least when you use a Safety Car once the lights go out the race leader controls the pace and decides 'when to go'.

A further negative for me was the size and colour of the flag, much smaller than all the other flags and best part of transparent in strong sunlight.

The one positive for me was the Course Car leading the field out from the Paddock and doing a lap @ 60kph for the Sports 2000, that was well thought out.
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Old 10 May 2017, 15:39 (Ref:3732672)   #21
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Old 12 May 2017, 07:37 (Ref:3732925)   #22
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275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Clearways View Post
Don't forget this is car racing in the UK. We have to send the course car out for a drive around after most/all sessions (dependent on organising club), every last marshal and vehicle must be clear of circuit before starting the green flag lap (for some organisers every last vehicle must be clear before even releasing onto the grid!). Run the green flag lap behind the safety car or with yellow flags while sweeping or tows are carried out, the red lights should go out when the last vehicle or marshal is clear of circuit.

If organsing clubs got on with it from the start (rather than when they are 25 minutes down at 5pm in the afternoon with a planned finish 5 minutes from curfew) they would find there is much more time available for stoppages. The drivers briefing should not be 20 minutes before qualifying so they cannot run early, there should be no note in the programme saying they can only run 20 minutes ahead, the lunchbreak should not be extended due to running ahead in the morning, they should just get on with it. A timetable without race start times does this well!

Go and see how Thundersport GB (Or BEMSEE to a slightly lesser degree) organise motorcycle racing. It's the way to do it.


Code 60 has issues with drivers not knowing when it is going to be displayed or withdrawn. This could be resolved by a board/flag signal 5 seconds before deployment and withdrawal - just like the '0' board during BSB safety cars.

Code 60 works very well in qualifying. It is safer than safety car - no idiot drivers hammering round to catch up with the train, in particular in races with pit stops.
I have said before that, in some respects, UK Marshalling needs a good shake- up.

Over here is far from perfect, but we do have the wherewithal (when all the moons and stars align) to run an efficient meeting.

Ego's and hidden agenda's are usually parked and the task at hand takes precedence when this happens
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Old 13 May 2017, 05:35 (Ref:3733123)   #23
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I wasn't at Cadwell, nor have I seen any footage - in fact this is the first I've heard of Code60 being using in UK club events since the introduction in the 2017 yearbook.

I think we can all see the benefits of what Code60 brings to the safety of the marshals and also to our racing. The advantages over running a SC are:

- Don't need to wait for the train to be formed
- all cars are circulating at the same speed (under SC in a mixed formula race those at the rear might be 'on the pace' trying to catch the train as to better their chances post SC period)
- the circulating speed of 60kph is sufficient for drivers to control their vehicles
- the effect is instantly deployed and recovered. The SC period can only finish in one place and the train leader backs off from that ready for the restart. Code60 gets rid of all that and instantly restarts the race.

The disadvantages are:
- It's new and as drivers we're mostly against change
- It's another regulation to remember, I have contact with a lot of club level racers who struggle to recall what I think are the easiest of regulations
- Organisers MUST run sector timing in order to effectively police the Code60
- It adds expense for someone to accurately measure their speed. Using RPM in a known gear is OK but not forced to be the most accurate.

My 2 penneth. It does have it's place and I can't see a way to introduce it gradually. If it means that marshals have their danger limited and we get longer racing under a green flag because we're not waiting for the SC train to form then I'm all for it. Red flagging and restarting a 15 min race will have a sever impact of the race in question and subsequent races in the programme. The programmes are tight as the organisers need to make best use out of the available circuit time in order to make the events run.
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Old 13 May 2017, 06:22 (Ref:3733128)   #24
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I can see the code 60 thing just producing ever more complexity and grounds for dispute. As said , the elephant in the room is what 60 actually means- even my road car's speedo isn't accurate , and obviously many competing race cars don't have a speedo at all , or one that works , different cars have different gearing etc. Is it an absolute offence to exceed 60 - by what margin ? And what's the sanction ? One would hope that for many races a common sense approach can be taken but if a championship's at stake and karter dad from hell with deep pockets makes a big deal out of it ? See you in court ?



And will it be Code 36 post Brexit ?
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Old 13 May 2017, 09:46 (Ref:3733155)   #25
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I can see the code 60 thing just producing ever more complexity and grounds for dispute. As said , the elephant in the room is what 60 actually means- even my road car's speedo isn't accurate , and obviously many competing race cars don't have a speedo at all , or one that works , different cars have different gearing etc. Is it an absolute offence to exceed 60 - by what margin ? And what's the sanction ? One would hope that for many races a common sense approach can be taken but if a championship's at stake and karter dad from hell with deep pockets makes a big deal out of it ? See you in court ?

And will it be Code 36 post Brexit ?
As another poster alluded to, this sounds like classic 'don't like change'. Code 60 has been around in Europe for what - 5 years already? It works.
Just be brave and look further afield than our own backyard and find the answers to all those questions.
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Old 13 May 2017, 15:52 (Ref:3733240)   #26
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Back in the "good old days", not so many years ago, a typical one-day club meeting would run seven or eight races; now it can be as many as eleven or twelve. Why? Because the cost of running a race meeting is now so high that the clubs are having to spread the cost over more entrants to keep the cost of entry down to something like reasonable (well, actually they are far from reasonable!).
You could equally argue that in the old days typical grids were 26 cars therefore not as many races were needed for the same number of entries and so the programme didn't need to be so packed.

Back to the topic, Code 60 in my experience works extremely well and sure allow a swift clear up in safety. We need to get used to it at club level, and especially educate the drivers that they need to do it properly. Perhaps with the threat that if they don't it will be a red flag with no restart. Instant penalty will concentrate the minds.

Code 60 won't work under all circumstances, but I think with common sense it will work under most. The old battenburg would have worked better if it had been deployed properly which is something code 60 deals with.

Just give it time, and then review. On the other hand, I can't disagree with the 'if drivers obeyed yellow flags properly we could work safely without it being needed'. And as for code 60 over short distances (Slow Zones WEC call them) that's sort of what a yellow flag sector is, isn't it?
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Old 14 May 2017, 06:26 (Ref:3733328)   #27
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As another poster alluded to, this sounds like classic 'don't like change'. Code 60 has been around in Europe for what - 5 years already? It works.
Just be brave and look further afield than our own backyard and find the answers to all those questions.
No , not at all, I am fine with any change for the right reason but don't welcome it for its own sake. I don't venture to Europe to watch racing , I have never seen Code 60 before last Sunday - hence my questions . Happy to watch it in action again - and just hope it doesn't spoil the day again...
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Old 14 May 2017, 06:39 (Ref:3733329)   #28
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The only people who will think code 60 is good are marshals and officials. Nobody who actually races will. It's even a step down from the battenburg.
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Old 14 May 2017, 07:13 (Ref:3733332)   #29
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Just give it time, and then review. On the other hand, I can't disagree with the 'if drivers obeyed yellow flags properly we could work safely without it being needed'. And as for code 60 over short distances (Slow Zones WEC call them) that's sort of what a yellow flag sector is, isn't it?
The problem with yellow flags though is that there is no solid line which a driver needs to hit (such as a speed limit). It's quite easy to drive through a yellow flag zone without attracting the attention of the officials but not losing much time whatsoever but still being in complete control of the car.

Code60 provides that acceptable solid line.

I'm on the fence with Code60 in general, but I for it for longer races where deploying the safety car destroys gaps built up. Code60 with a closed pitlane keeps the result to the on-track performance.
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Old 14 May 2017, 10:13 (Ref:3733346)   #30
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No , not at all, I am fine with any change for the right reason but don't welcome it for its own sake. I don't venture to Europe to watch racing , I have never seen Code 60 before last Sunday - hence my questions . Happy to watch it in action again - and just hope it doesn't spoil the day again...
What little racing I do is mostly in mainland Europe. I've both seen it and experienced it first-hand - that's why I support it so strongly. If you want to review it in action I commend to you any of the Creventic/Hankook endurance series races, lots on Youtube.
To attempt to answer your questions:
- 60 means 60 kph.
- road car speedos are irrelevant although it is possible to have them recalibrated for different tyres and gearing.
- if you compete in a race where Code 60 is used it behoves even the most broke or daft driver to ensure he has an accurate speedo; neither difficult nor expensive.
- the aim is to keep the gaps even; if a gap is obviously closed up then split sector times can be examined. The sanctions will be according to the event's Regulations, could be added time penalty or drive-through etc.
- I don't think anyone has yet proposed it be used in karting.
- it will be subject to the appeals process and judicial system of the organising club and the national ASN - precisely the same as any other infringement.

Last edited by MGDavid; 14 May 2017 at 10:25.
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