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Old 21 Aug 2017, 23:17 (Ref:3760827)   #16
Kingair
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Kingair should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Some valid points raised by Damien_White.

Watching Four Corners last night, you wonder how many people in Australia really are under mortgage stress, cost of living stress, 48 month interest free from Hardly Normal stress plus time poor factor.

A weekend at the V8's is not cheap, but to me it value for money- we don't rush out buy the team jacket, lanyard, model cars etc, and we always take our own food and drinks. However on the other hand you watch people rock up with a couple of kids and they do a raid on the merchandise stand and then the food stalls, you can see an average family going through $500 very easily on a Saturday or Sunday.

The Supercars is a well run format, you get 24 cars on the grid barring any accidents, you can actually meet the drivers and it good bit of entertainment. Just because Whincup wins on Sunday, doesn't mean I am going out Monday buying a Commodore! The format is good, there are no long winded delays, we never went when it was the ATC championship it was a long day to sit around and wait for a 20 minute race.

In the late 1970's, speedway was at it's the peak in Tasmania and promoters were loving the crowd numbers!
A Coca-Cola USA team versus Tasmania team at Latrobe on a Friday night in February 1978, drew a crowd of 14,000 people. Considering Tasmania had a population of 250,000 people in those days that was a big crowd.
The speedway on an average night would draw 5,000 people and for anything like the Marlboro Grand Prix you would get in excess of 10,000 people! Have a look at a speedway meeting, maybe 2,000 people.

I don't go to the speedway these days, but next year I will be going to the World Series Sprintcars, because it is a well run event and a nice tight program.

The old factor, people are time rich cash poor, or cash rich time poor.
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Old 21 Aug 2017, 23:27 (Ref:3760828)   #17
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Originally Posted by Damien_White View Post
I struggle to understand how many of the same people who cite model relativity as being crucial for sustainability also scream "keep the V8's. We don't want this turbo 6 crap".
No doubt there are people who want to see Supercars as v8s. Its certainly a model that has worked for 20+ years. why im not sure. I think its a masculine issue. sort of like time Tim the Toolman when he talks about more power

I would think most spectators want to see something that represents what they would want to buy, even though they will buy different. Its why the mustang shape has to be the future for ford if it has a future. That's what people would want to buy, its a it fantasy. No want wants to buy a mondeo, how dull and basic, no passion.

Where as v8 commodores and v8 falcons were for many years that car that created passion in its supporters, (but those fans are in their late 30s through to 70 now) But the v8 doesnt create the same passion in the younger generation

Maybe why the Kia stinger has a bit of a buzz about it a s road car. a bit of fantasy and passion
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Old 22 Aug 2017, 02:43 (Ref:3760845)   #18
Compromised
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I struggle to understand how many of the same people who cite model relativity as being crucial for sustainability also scream "keep the V8's. We don't want this turbo 6 crap".
It seems your not in line with what Supercars itself is doing - you brush off road relevance like it's nothing, yet Supercars are allowing 6 turbos, 2 doors etc to facilitate more road relevant cars all while alienating the V8 crowd that arguably are one of the reasons Supercars have been so successful. They must have pretty good reason to potentially annoy a large section of their fan base no?

Could it be they value road relevance more than you? Personally I don't want race cars to be road relevant at all, but I don't pay the bills.

Not sure how you can be so flippant about it
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Old 22 Aug 2017, 03:24 (Ref:3760849)   #19
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Originally Posted by Compromised View Post
It seems your not in line with what Supercars itself is doing - you brush off road relevance like it's nothing, yet Supercars are allowing 6 turbos, 2 doors etc to facilitate more road relevant cars all while alienating the V8 crowd that arguably are one of the reasons Supercars have been so successful. They must have pretty good reason to potentially annoy a large section of their fan base no?

Could it be they value road relevance more than you? Personally I don't want race cars to be road relevant at all, but I don't pay the bills.

Not sure how you can be so flippant about it
I'm just sharing my opinion. The fact it may not align with Supercars' direction is not that relevant.
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Old 22 Aug 2017, 03:29 (Ref:3760850)   #20
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peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
I think though that we as fans maybe need to work out what we like.

Supercars moved well beyond road based cars many years ago. It seems that is not really a significant concern to most fans.

Fans appear more interested in an exciting race and close competition with a production looking car. Which is the market Supercars have aimed for

Im not sure even though die hard fans complain about v8s, im not sure that will affect most
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Old 22 Aug 2017, 05:03 (Ref:3760853)   #21
Alan52
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Alan52 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAlan52 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
While the relevance factor of staying with Falcons etc won't hurt them much in 2018 it will look ridiculously retro if they are still running them in 2020.I don't think manufacturers will want to go to the expense of being involved in a series running in this small market.If DTM is going from 24 grids from 3 manufacturers in 2016 to what looks like 12 car grids from 2 manufacturers in 2018 it is hard to see Supercars growing.
I agree with most of what Damien says except for the following 2 points.The big 6 events he talks about are not necessarily thriving either.Townsville crowds are only a fraction of what they were 6 or 7 years ago and Sandown is nowhere near peak numbers from years gone by.Newcastle may finish up as another Homebush in 2-3 years time.The formats of these meeting are pretty good though.Also people often don't realise competitive and close are not necessarily words that mean identical things in this context.F1 may not be the closest racing but it has the best drivers and teams in motor racing and at this pinnacle it is always going to be incredibly competitive.This is why it has by far the biggest following world wide and draws a crowd in Australia much larger than any touring car race could ever hope to.
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Old 22 Aug 2017, 05:14 (Ref:3760854)   #22
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While the relevance factor of staying with Falcons etc won't hurt them much in 2018 it will look ridiculously retro if they are still running them in 2020.I don't think manufacturers will want to go to the expense of being involved in a series running in this small market.If DTM is going from 24 grids from 3 manufacturers in 2016 to what looks like 12 car grids from 2 manufacturers in 2018 it is hard to see Supercars growing.
I agree with most of what Damien says except for the following 2 points.The big 6 events he talks about are not necessarily thriving either.Townsville crowds are only a fraction of what they were 6 or 7 years ago and Sandown is nowhere near peak numbers from years gone by.Newcastle may finish up as another Homebush in 2-3 years time.The formats of these meeting are pretty good though.Also people often don't realise competitive and close are not necessarily words that mean identical things in this context.F1 may not be the closest racing but it has the best drivers and teams in motor racing and at this pinnacle it is always going to be incredibly competitive.This is why it has by far the biggest following world wide and draws a crowd in Australia much larger than any touring car race could ever hope to.
Isnt the big 6 a tv term not a crowd attendance term. It represents the most watched events of all the events
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Old 22 Aug 2017, 05:18 (Ref:3760856)   #23
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Supercars moved well beyond road based cars many years ago. It seems that is not really a significant concern to most fans.
This is where you have to be careful - I'm always shocked at how many people in viewer land actually think the race cars are close to their road going counterparts. You and I know the many, not too subtle, differences but I believe the general public consensus would be that cars are a lot closer than actually are.
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Old 22 Aug 2017, 06:29 (Ref:3760865)   #24
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D.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridD.R.T. should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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A weekend at the V8's is not cheap, but to me it value for money
Understandably everyone has a different perspective on value for money - however I looked into going along to the SMP 501 Australian GT race on Saturday of the V8SC event. This would have cost $60.00 to gain entry alone.

For me this isn't value for money and hence I will need to wait for the event for the coverage to make itself available on youtube.
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Old 22 Aug 2017, 07:39 (Ref:3760877)   #25
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Originally Posted by Compromised View Post
This is where you have to be careful - I'm always shocked at how many people in viewer land actually think the race cars are close to their road going counterparts. You and I know the many, not too subtle, differences but I believe the general public consensus would be that cars are a lot closer than actually are.
I have also had this experience.

Fans like us who post on a motorsport forum understand there is no relationship between the road car and the race car.

However for every fan like us there are thousands of casual or once a year viewers who may believe the race cars are closely related to the road cars.

I have had numerous conversations with casual fans who still believe the race cars are hotted up road cars.

Which may mean the bulk of the audience watching Bathurst on TV the next few years will scratch their heads wondering why V8 Commodores and Falcons ares still racing.
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Old 22 Aug 2017, 09:02 (Ref:3760895)   #26
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This is where you have to be careful - I'm always shocked at how many people in viewer land actually think the race cars are close to their road going counterparts. You and I know the many, not too subtle, differences but I believe the general public consensus would be that cars are a lot closer than actually are.
Which is quite amazing if they've ever watched the frequent slow motion replays of a car hitting the ripple strips or a chicane with every composite panel wobbling around as if it was made of jelly.
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Old 22 Aug 2017, 12:27 (Ref:3760937)   #27
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Understandably everyone has a different perspective on value for money - however I looked into going along to the SMP 501 Australian GT race on Saturday of the V8SC event. This would have cost $60.00 to gain entry alone.

For me this isn't value for money and hence I will need to wait for the event for the coverage to make itself available on youtube.
One hour of highlights of this race on One on Saturday afternoon.
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Old 23 Aug 2017, 00:19 (Ref:3761045)   #28
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But whats the alternative.
Only allow rear-wheel-drive sedans?

You HAVE TO race a sedan that is available for sale with RWD like an Alfa Romeo Giulia, Jaguar XE, Kia Stinger or Mercedes C63 or you can't race at all. Simple.

The stick of "if you don't do this, you *can't* race" will give teams the kickalong to fund their homologations, regardless of a lack of factory sponsorship.

Funny that only allowing Australian-made rear wheel drive sedans was OK before, but somehow *only* allowing rear-wheel-drive sedans is no longer OK? What the heck is all that about!?
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Old 23 Aug 2017, 00:23 (Ref:3761046)   #29
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The alternative is to race cars with relevance,
Exactly. Relevant available performance RWD sedans:
  • Giulia QV
  • BMW M3
  • Mercedes C63 AMG
  • Lexus GSF
  • Kia Stinger GT
  • Infiniti Q50 Red Sport

The Ford Falcon, Nissan Altima and Holden Insignia / Commodore are nowhere to be seen on this list so they should be out. No ifs, no buts. Ford Mustang has the wrong number of doors, so it is also out of the question.
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Old 23 Aug 2017, 00:28 (Ref:3761049)   #30
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That great, what are those cars? The corolla, mazda and camry or a ute or an sUV
No, the current hyped performance sedans are exactly the cars I mentioned. Finely engineered machines like an Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio with major input from Ferrari, or the more affordable Kia Stinger GT... RWD sedans sporting twin-turbo V6s.

Not that a HSV GTS is not a finely engineered machine too -- it is absolutely, but sadly it is discontinued.
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