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Old 29 Aug 2017, 17:17 (Ref:3762700)   #1
Taxi645
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Why let get Mercedes and Ferrari get away with the engine situation?

Why do we as fans, let get Mercedes and Ferrari get away with the engine situation?

What a shame it is, since 2014 about only two drivers each year have had a shot at the world championship. Great drivers like, Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo see their chances for the world championship passed them by and their talents being waisted. Perhaps 2019 Renault and Honda might have a shot, but I'm not optimistic. Yes 2021 we'll see a different rule set, but that means this situation will endure three more years!

Why do we accept this as fans? Why do we accept Mercedes and Ferrari to serve their self-interest and deny us fans a REAL fight between Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Verstappen and Ricciardo? They aren't getting any younger and who knows how long fossil fuel based motor racing will last? I despise them for denying us that.

Why don't speak up and call them out? Why do we let them get away with it? They are in it for brand value, why don't we let them know what we think about their brand for denying is proper racing?

Screw you Mercedes and Ferrari for being too chicken to supply McLaren and Red Bull with engines, for messing up 7 years of F1 competition. In my eyes you've only tainted your brand.

I wish fans would speak up much more strongly and demand an engine supply enforcement from 2019 onwards.
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 17:32 (Ref:3762706)   #2
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What have they done wrong? If you have to supply a minimum number of cars, aren't Honda the ones getting away with it?

Could argue that if F1 is healthy then you wouldn't need rules about minimum supply of cars - people would be building engines to fill the demand.
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 18:07 (Ref:3762714)   #3
Richard Casto
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This speaks to the question of... "What is Formula 1?"

It is both a constructors and drivers championship. The constructors are where the budget exists and their position in their championship defines how they are financially rewarded. The drivers are generally hired help. The drivers championship is important to them, but not as much as the constructors.

I don't see how teams like Mercedes, etc. are doing anything other than what the should given how the game is expected to be played? The closest thing to the OP complaint is that having strong dominance can cause a series to suffer and decline. Smart teams will do just enough to keep the series healthy without loosing their dominance.

In short, the rules of the game would need to be redefined if we expect a different outcome.

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Old 29 Aug 2017, 18:24 (Ref:3762720)   #4
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imo not sure where the blame lies...personally i am more of the opinion that uncontrolled budgets and budget size discrepencies are more to blame for the lack of competition at the top and the cost of the engine supply is just a symptom of the larger problem.

that said though (honest question), are RB and Mclaren good partners to have? rather is it fair to place the blame on Merc and Ferrari for not wanting to do business with RB and Mclaren?

Mclaren were always asking way too much from an engine supplier (sponsorship deal, drivers wages, free(ish) engines).

with their own works team, Merc would never have agreed to those terms where as Honda was.

and i can imagine a Ferrari deal was ever on the table while RD was in charge...that of course may change in the future.

RB have had a pretty up and down partnership with Renault (branding issues when the partnership was winning titles) and outright public recriminations when they were not...cant blame Merc for wanting to stay away from that.

and RB did once have a Ferrari deal but they shifted that over to STR...cant imagine Ferrari has forgotten about that.
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 20:22 (Ref:3762757)   #5
Mike Harte
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Mclaren were always asking way too much from an engine supplier (sponsorship deal, drivers wages, free(ish) engines).

with their own works team, Merc would never have agreed to those terms where as Honda was.
To be fair, all the major teams try to get their suppliers to stump up for the privilege of being a part of the package. And Honda wanted a top name with their latest partnership with McLaren, and that required them to cover Alonso's wages.

Look at the situation at Ferrari. Philip Morris have been supporting that teams so long that you could almost say that they are part of the package. Do you really believe that Ferrari would have paid Schumacher his $25 million ( at least ) retainer for all those years if Philip Morris hadn't been covering it? And what exposure did they get for that once tobacco advertising was banned?

It's all part of the F1 game.
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 20:43 (Ref:3762762)   #6
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true but surely Ferrari having PM backing is a very different proposition to Ferrari (or any engine manu with their own works team) offering that kind of support to another team though no?

but an interesting point...other then PM, access to the cig money has never been replaced.
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 21:05 (Ref:3762765)   #7
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I don't think Mercedes or Ferrari are to blame, what have they done done wrong? I'd say it's quite the opposite, they are the ones that have got it right.

I'd suggest that you have to look at Renault and latterly Honda as to why they haven't been able to crack the nut and produce engines of equal reliability* and power to Mercedes and Ferrari.

* Reliability is relative in current engine regs given the limited number of engine parts allowed on cost grounds.
The cost grounds part is a bit of nonsense, you can be sure that the likes of Honda, aren't building from scratch a new everything for every other race without incurring additional costs.
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 21:51 (Ref:3762781)   #8
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Mercedes has been been "getting it right" long before this engine specification was even agreed upon. They've steered talks, rubbed shoulders and used their financial clout to get the engine spec they wanted years ago. So they basically bought the titles up until now while everyone else had to play catch up in a "sport" that has been regulated to make innovation almost impossible.

So to say Mercedes got it right is beyond incredulous.
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 23:49 (Ref:3762799)   #9
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The only issue I see is the lack of "free" testing, which is what has hampered every engine manufacturer apart from Merc. Because Merc started their work the moment they went into the development meetings (as mentioned above) and didn't wait for an official announcement of the rules package and then begin designing. They used the system to thier benefit and reaped the rewards. Not bleat like RB.

Full credit to Ferrari for persevering and getting back to race winning.
Renault and Honda are on the back foot time wise and don't have the ability to leap ahead (and catch up.)

Engine manufacturers are only able to support x amount of teams (physically and by contract) which are at or near max now. McLaren saw an opportunity to save money and chose Honda. RB ridiculed everyone but themselves so no wonder the other didn't want to play with them. I don't like Ferrari forcing older generation motors out there but now at least that is a thing of the past.
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Old 30 Aug 2017, 05:03 (Ref:3762834)   #10
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Competition is closer than it has ever been. There used to be times when the difference between teams were not tenths of a second but seconds. When Alonso was at Minardi he was regularly fighting the 107% mark to actually be allowed to race. When have we last talked about that?

The issue is that reliability is also higher than it has ever been which is why the top teams always win.

This season is the most competitive we had in years. I do not see any issues at all. The other engine manufacturers simply need to up their game. This is not a spec series.
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Old 30 Aug 2017, 06:20 (Ref:3762845)   #11
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The issue is that reliability is also higher than it has ever been which is why the top teams always win.
That, for me, is a major point.
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Old 30 Aug 2017, 08:14 (Ref:3762865)   #12
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That, for me, is a major point.

Probably because of the limited engines they can use, they have become more carefull, sometimes even too carefull.

like with Max in Spa: turns out there was actualy nothing wrong with the engine, it just turned to safe mode because the software thought
there was, but back in the pitlane they just had to unscrew a spark plug and put the same sparkplug back in an the engine worked again like nothing ever happened.

You don't see engines blow up anymore, they always take a very big safety margin. And that's not what F1 should be: F1 should be about testing the limits.
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Old 30 Aug 2017, 08:20 (Ref:3762867)   #13
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Reliability heavily improved even before the limited engines. Schumacher had a run of more than a season of podium finishes, meaning he did not retire once during that time span.

The top teams' improvements flowed down due to customer engines and everyone being better prepared.

Max's retirement is a bad example because it was a retirement, something that hardly happens anymore. It would be a good example if he had run on and finished regardless of the warning.

Take a look at old results: sometimes point down to 8th did not even make sense because there were not 8 finishers. Paniz won Monaco in 97 (?) because there were retirements by crashes and mechanicals. This simply does not happen anymore because drivers and material have improved. Hence hardly any surprise winners due to randomness. This makes it look like teams are further apart which in fact they are not.
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Old 30 Aug 2017, 10:54 (Ref:3762892)   #14
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No one wanted to supply RBR with engines with the way they always publicly complained about Reanult engines. They've dug their own hole
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Old 30 Aug 2017, 11:16 (Ref:3762894)   #15
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I think the OP is being a bit niaive if he thinks fans speaking out will have any effect on either the FIA, the F1 hierarchy or the engine suppliers. When did 'fan power' ever have any influence in F1 and come to think of it - why should it? Further, is 'fan power' united? Would Merc and Ferrari fans join the protest?
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