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Old 29 Aug 2017, 00:30 (Ref:3762486)   #1
JamesR202
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What will the future F1 engine be?

My guess is simply a V6, without MGU-H
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 05:16 (Ref:3762512)   #2
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3 litre flat 12 sounds like fun.
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 06:20 (Ref:3762516)   #3
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Fairly obvious it will be electric.
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 09:25 (Ref:3762548)   #4
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Originally Posted by Armco Bender View Post
Fairly obvious it will be electric.
They've already made steps to stop using the term 'engine' by referring to things as a Power Unit.

As Armco says, it's almost certain that the drive will be from electric motors (rather than 'engines'), but what's up for discussion and is really really interesting if you're an engineering or science nerd is what the power source will be.

By that I don't mean whether the cars themselves will carry lithium battery packs (or carbon nanotube batteries, or some other exotic technology that we don't have yet) but where does the power to drive the motors come from?

Could be on-board hydrogen fuel cells, could be solar, could be wind, could be coal/petrol/gas (stranger things have happened), could be nuclear, could be we have a Norwegian GP powered by hydro-electricity

There's all manner of untapped potential sponsors if F1 starts looking at it from the full lifecycle of the car and energy source. It'll be interesting, that's for sure.

All that said... I don't think F1 will be in the vanguard of these technologies; I think it'll lag behind.

Last edited by Greem; 29 Aug 2017 at 09:54. Reason: Egads, your/you're slippage!
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 13:36 (Ref:3762606)   #5
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Originally Posted by Greem View Post
They've already made steps to stop using the term 'engine' by referring to things as a Power Unit.

As Armco says, it's almost certain that the drive will be from electric motors (rather than 'engines'), but what's up for discussion and is really really interesting if you're an engineering or science nerd is what the power source will be.

By that I don't mean whether the cars themselves will carry lithium battery packs (or carbon nanotube batteries, or some other exotic technology that we don't have yet) but where does the power to drive the motors come from?

Could be on-board hydrogen fuel cells, could be solar, could be wind, could be coal/petrol/gas (stranger things have happened), could be nuclear, could be we have a Norwegian GP powered by hydro-electricity

There's all manner of untapped potential sponsors if F1 starts looking at it from the full lifecycle of the car and energy source. It'll be interesting, that's for sure.

All that said... I don't think F1 will be in the vanguard of these technologies; I think it'll lag behind.
His idea is very interesting, but for that to happen Formula 1 must change its mentality and open to allow all types of engines without the need to focus on a single style as happened in the last 20 years.
Why does it have to be only a 1.6 V6 turbo? Imagine how interesting it would be to have the V4 2.0 turbo of the Porsche 919 in the McLaren or the Red Bull. Why not an atmospheric V8, V10 or V12 too? Hand to hand with the turbo like in the 80s.
Even Honda with its disastrous current performance could turn to its NRE 4 in line 2.0 of the SuperGT or the V6 2.2 turbo of Indy Cars that perhaps could work better than the current engine.
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 13:49 (Ref:3762609)   #6
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His idea is very interesting, but for that to happen Formula 1 must change its mentality and open to allow all types of engines without the need to focus on a single style as happened in the last 20 years.
Why does it have to be only a 1.6 V6 turbo? Imagine how interesting it would be to have the V4 2.0 turbo of the Porsche 919 in the McLaren or the Red Bull. Why not an atmospheric V8, V10 or V12 too? Hand to hand with the turbo like in the 80s.
Even Honda with its disastrous current performance could turn to its NRE 4 in line 2.0 of the SuperGT or the V6 2.2 turbo of Indy Cars that perhaps could work better than the current engine.
How long until engineers figure out the best mix to match the tracks and demands of the car? When you are working in a field where Honda's engine is terrible and seemingly the worst F1 engine ever if you read here, how long could you go without the most efficient answer to the problem? It doesn't seem like anyone stayed with the NA engines over turbo when it looked the turbos were going to survive. Toyota started out larger NA and shrunk with a turbo after seeing Porsche's answer was better and Audi was constantly squeezed by the diesel now being the wrong answer, and not the chosen fuel any longer.
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 14:38 (Ref:3762620)   #7
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How long until engineers figure out the best mix to match the tracks and demands of the car? When you are working in a field where Honda's engine is terrible and seemingly the worst F1 engine ever if you read here, how long could you go without the most efficient answer to the problem? It doesn't seem like anyone stayed with the NA engines over turbo when it looked the turbos were going to survive. Toyota started out larger NA and shrunk with a turbo after seeing Porsche's answer was better and Audi was constantly squeezed by the diesel now being the wrong answer, and not the chosen fuel any longer.
That is easily solved by assigning some more fuel to the aspirated engines. In this way you can have an economic V8 like cosworth, which kept alive formula 1 in the 70s and 80s.
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 14:41 (Ref:3762621)   #8
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Why dont road cars and racing cars use detachable batteries that can be removed and then just a new one just slotted into its place within a few seconds? I can appreciate they would be very heavy, we have to remove battery units from our server room UPS and its takes two of us to lift them, however the principle is the same, and also it shares more in common with having to re-fuel in a "current" car. Why can't you pull into a "Charge Station", have your battery slotted out, then have another put into your car and then off you go, 2 min and you are done, just like a normal fuel stop today?
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 15:48 (Ref:3762633)   #9
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Hopefully not electric, F1 cars need noise. The hybrids have probably had their day though
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 15:53 (Ref:3762638)   #10
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The stated goals are cheaper, simpler and louder. I suspect...

* Hybrid will remain
* Maybe a bump in the amount of energy that can be used by the hybrid side.
* No MGU-H. Just MGU-K
* Likely mandated to be a V design, but unlikely V10 or V12. There may be cost savings to keep the basic V6 rough spec, but it could easily be a V8 due to sound quality.
* I am on the fence regarding turbo remaining.
* Rework of fuel allowance scheme. That may be the main factor to help with the "sound". Less required efficiency of the ICE should result in more energy being converted to sound. This may also be an argument for dropping the turbo.

I think the above checks the required boxes. I think nearly zero chance of it being a full electric solution.

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Old 29 Aug 2017, 16:00 (Ref:3762644)   #11
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How far in the future?

Whilst I have no problem with regular road cars moving to becoming EVs, I don't like the idea of losing sound. I wouldn't be against the idea of a hydrogen ICE (not fuel cell) to retain the sound of engines that we love.
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 16:14 (Ref:3762649)   #12
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Originally Posted by Greem View Post
They've already made steps to stop using the term 'engine' by referring to things as a Power Unit.
interesting. cant say i have heard this change in nomenclature described this way before.

i had assumed it was just easier to say PU but, as you suggest, the name change can also be seen as a sign of changes yet to come....i like that.



my two cents..i really like the current direction of looking for increases in thermal efficiency and energy recovery from heat and exhaust gas systems.

i cant say i fully understand the engineering side of it but i do appreciate the complexity and challenge of it so personally i would like to see them continue down the hybrid path.
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 22:27 (Ref:3762774)   #13
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I think the next generation of PU's will be similar to the current ones with greater braking energy recovery ( will they be able to use the front axle as it would play havoc with the aero?) and motors similar to what we have now.

The following generation will possibly be a large electric motor/generator with a power out put similar to today's cars but being supplied by possibly an ICE running at constant revs driving a generator supplying a battery.
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Old 29 Aug 2017, 22:52 (Ref:3762783)   #14
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I just hope Mercedes doesn't get to decide what it is again.
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Old 30 Aug 2017, 02:17 (Ref:3762808)   #15
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I just hope Mercedes doesn't get to decide what it is again.
Rumors are that Merc started work on their V6T's as early as 2007. I even remember hearing reports at the time......
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