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Old 28 Jul 2017, 07:45 (Ref:3754998)   #1
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LMP1 where do we go from here?

Following the news from Porsche this morning, the question has to be asked where do we go here?

I see from Sportscar365 that TMG are having an "emergency meeting", but I do think Toyota will stay as the technology they are using is being passed into there road cars.

The Peugeot rumor will not go away but there is no way they are going to be ready for 2018, so it might be 2019 before we see them.

What about BMW we know they are coming into GTE next year but where they meant to be building a P1 Hybrid as well for 2020 when the new regs come into force.

But I think for P1 to survive the old style "garagistes" need to come in a give the class some backbone. We know that Ginetta will coming out to play and there are the rumored cars from Dallara/SNP and Perrinn. But who else is out there?

I have just been looking at the entry for my first Le Mans in 2002 and there where private entries from Riley & Scott, Dome ,Lola , Panoz, Courage, Dallara and Ascari. It is interesting to see how times have changed.

So I go back to my original point LMP1 where do we go from here?
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 08:36 (Ref:3755009)   #2
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It appears Toyota is going to review their program as their presence is based on Porsche being involved in LMP1.
http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130956

I suspect there might be a few of the top LMP2 teams looking at a P1 program giving them a decent chance of an overall victory at Le Mans even if Toyota stay. I cannot see any new manufacturers before 2019 at the earliest but more likely they could wait for the new P1 regs.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 08:47 (Ref:3755013)   #3
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Where LMP1, and a few other series, go from here is Formula E!

Audi, BMW, Citroen (DS), Jaguar, Mahindra, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche and Renault are, or will be, involved in the series. That's two of the three recent LMP1 manufacturers, and two of the four current F1 engine suppliers. Mercedes have canned their DTM program in favour of FE as well.

In the future, we won't need ear plugs.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 08:41 (Ref:3755010)   #4
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The cyclical nature of motorsport continues and I guess we're going back to the dark side of the moon.

Like in the early 00's I'm hopeful we'll see more privateer teams stepping up to fill the void. Toyota are left holding the can and the responsibility of holding up the championship almost. Certainly all those flyaway events seem less tenable so the ACO need to have a long, hard look in the mirror as to whether they let P1s back into the ELMS and things like that.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 08:48 (Ref:3755014)   #5
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There are still a decent number of manufacturers in the GT ranks so that would justify a world program but it is down to how do the FIA and the ACO restructure the P1 class in the long term. In a way with no current manufacturer involvement it could allow a new path for manufacturers in P1.

I suspect that FE will have a problem down the road as manufacturers don't like losing and with 7 or 8 of them in FE I suspect there will be an arms race followed by an implosion when a bunch of them leave having spent fortunes to come last.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 08:53 (Ref:3755015)   #6
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Time for the ACO to be proactive - and sensible. Make P1 attractive for the privateers...
Are they capable of this?
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 08:55 (Ref:3755016)   #7
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Well - this certainly Toyotas best shot at winning Le Mans. A race against themselves in LMP1 is one even they surely can't lose?
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 08:57 (Ref:3755017)   #8
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ACO needs to create a LMPe class for electric prototypes.
This is what the market demands, this is what the manufacturers demand.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 11:24 (Ref:3755052)   #9
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ACO needs to create a LMPe class for electric prototypes.
This is what the market demands, this is what the manufacturers demand.
That would be directly involved with road car development. Formula E is far from being ideal for EV development but from marketing perspective it is the only one. Problem WEC faces is the fast tracks for pure EV racing. They would require battery change every half an hour or so. I don't see Fuel Cell being any relevant in the future unfortunately so I don't think they can rely on that either, although Toyota would have loved that.

Anyway once Formula E gig is done and EV technology gets into adolescence WEC will be relevant again. All those manufacturers from FE will come to WEC to showcase their real products. FE will have a hard time moving from spec series completely. Manufacturers enjoy marketing benefits from spec series right now but it will be a whole different game when FE tries to open up major parts for development and I'm not sure FE is ready for that yet. But WEC will be.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 11:51 (Ref:3755060)   #10
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FE will have a hard time moving from spec series completely. Manufacturers enjoy marketing benefits from spec series right now but it will be a whole different game when FE tries to open up major parts for development and I'm not sure FE is ready for that yet. But WEC will be.
Why would one series, built for smaller tracks and sprint races, fail where another would immediately be ready for success? Opening the parts up for development has been in the pipeline for years, hence the manufacturers now migrating over in preparation for new pieces being allowed. MB, Porsche, Audi all have time to work on their product and they know what the rules will be when they enter. BMW has been hanging around the Andretti crews to get a feel for it and working with the team in developing motors. I think they all know exactly what they are getting in to and know the marketing of the EVENT is what sells for them on the street, the innovation is what sells to the board.

Which do you think sells better to new fans, an afternoon event with everything from noon-6 pm in a city or a weekend event with gaps in the schedule and a commitment from the fan to travel out to the event? You can hate it all you want but honestly, they probably have ZERO interest in attracting old race fans. They are looking for the fans who weren't in to racing but might be attracted by something completely different.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 12:13 (Ref:3755064)   #11
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I think they all know exactly what they are getting in to and know the marketing of the EVENT is what sells for them on the street, the innovation is what sells to the board.

Which do you think sells better to new fans, an afternoon event with everything from noon-6 pm in a city or a weekend event with gaps in the schedule and a commitment from the fan to travel out to the event? You can hate it all you want but honestly, they probably have ZERO interest in attracting old race fans. They are looking for the fans who weren't in to racing but might be attracted by something completely different.
Yup. Good insight.

We "old-school" fans have a view of how racing is, has been, and should be ... and we are a dying breed, literally.

Modern "fans" and potential fans have a completely different set of expectations .. and generally are less willing to commit time, attention, and energy (to anything.) They want immediate gratification, sensory overload, constant variety ... they need to have three data streams running all the time or they fall asleep.

A six-Hour race? Six minutes is an eternity to these people. These are people who want to go downtown, eat, shop, text, instagram their selfies, and in between be diverted by street musicians, people-watching, and oh, look, here come those cars going by again! Wow, that's like three time they have passed by here!

If FIA has a single member with a brain, s/he will insist on a few things: low cost to competitors, short events, short circuits, in-city circuits. Today's fans don't show a lot of signs of being thrilled by tech, except in how they can use it---they want to see results, they don't want to see the code.

They want spectacle ... they don't care about the relative efficiency of two different battery/motor packages, the tradeoffs between different systems .... this car has more downforce and less drag ... Dude, talking about all that stuff is a drag. Here, let me post this picture of a pizza slice on Facebook.

I don't often agree with Broadrun, but this time he is right.
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Old 29 Jul 2017, 13:44 (Ref:3755447)   #12
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Why would one series, built for smaller tracks and sprint races, fail where another would immediately be ready for success? Opening the parts up for development has been in the pipeline for years, hence the manufacturers now migrating over in preparation for new pieces being allowed. MB, Porsche, Audi all have time to work on their product and they know what the rules will be when they enter. BMW has been hanging around the Andretti crews to get a feel for it and working with the team in developing motors. I think they all know exactly what they are getting in to and know the marketing of the EVENT is what sells for them on the street, the innovation is what sells to the board.

Which do you think sells better to new fans, an afternoon event with everything from noon-6 pm in a city or a weekend event with gaps in the schedule and a commitment from the fan to travel out to the event? You can hate it all you want but honestly, they probably have ZERO interest in attracting old race fans. They are looking for the fans who weren't in to racing but might be attracted by something completely different.
If FE can't hold it together once manufacturers start shredding them apart like dogs because they want X and are willing to pull out if official stance is still Y then they have no chance in hell. They can either watch cost skyrocket into oblivion and manufacturers dropping out going somewhere else or they can pressure them not to spend money (develop) and watch them pull out.

WEC has LeMans Winner marketing bragging rights and they are more adaptable and flexible when it comes to trends and rules. If needed they would be ready to drop LMP1 as we know it in order to introduce something like GT500 with cars based off real cars but with prototype technology inside. That would be a hell more valuable to manufacturers then Formula E cause buyers could associate their road cars far better with something that resembles a road car than open wheel racecar.

Imo FE is just the stepping stone for manufacturers in EV battleground. Once technology grows up they will go somewhere else. There is a little chance FE will become flagship racing entity. Very little chance.

Time will tell.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 09:13 (Ref:3755022)   #13
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With Toyota having linked their presence to the presence of Porsche (or another manufacturer), I doubt they will stick around for long either. If they do pull out, Peugeot's entry is unlikely to me as well.

With several countries placing future bans on petrol and diesel, the manufacturers may just see Formula E as the best place to develop technologies for electric cars.

I'm thinking we will see a long stretch of LMP1-P running the WEC-show. It's not necessarily a bad thing to me, but there many people who are watching just because of the P1 manufacturers battles.

also, I agree that for Le Mans at least, there should be a DPi class. they run at Daytona, Sebring, and Petit Le Mans. that's some of the greatest endurance races there are, yet Le Mans snubs them?
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 10:19 (Ref:3755033)   #14
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Can I point out that though we may be on the wrong side of the cycle, the "dark" periods of our side of the sport has also produced some fabulous races, particularly at Le Mans.

The main difference will be there will be far fewer casual fans watching. They'll return with the manufacturers.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 10:53 (Ref:3755046)   #15
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Agreed. I still made calls to get my tickets sorted for 2018 knowing Porsche wouldn't be there. Le Mans will be fine, sportscar racing will continue. It's the WEC that is the interesting one.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 12:58 (Ref:3755071)   #16
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I think Toyota will stay for 2018 so that they can finally get their name on the roster of Le Mans winners (and pick up another world championship), then quit - maybe to build a DPi?
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 13:02 (Ref:3755073)   #17
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I think Toyota will stay for 2018 so that they can finally get their name on the roster of Le Mans winners (and pick up another world championship), then quit - maybe to build a DPi?
I could see them bringing Lexus back to prototype ranks with Acura being back and in the same series now.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 13:14 (Ref:3755074)   #18
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Have nothing but resepect for Toyota. They came into WEC a year early - to fill the Pegeout vacuum. A great competitor with some bad luck.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 13:42 (Ref:3755080)   #19
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Maybe Toyota could run 4 cars at LM next year. Two from Toyota and two from Lexus. Although with their luck a 'Lexus' would win.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 14:23 (Ref:3755090)   #20
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Maybe Toyota could run 4 cars at LM next year. Two from Toyota and two from Lexus. Although with their luck a 'Lexus' would win.
Ha!

Bless their hearts, the Lexus probably wouldn't win either...
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 15:00 (Ref:3755101)   #21
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Isn't it funny - well, funny in a "hollow laugh" sense - that Peugeot, Audi and Porsche have all pulled out quite suddenly? My best guess is that Toyota will announce in the autumn that they're withdrawing at the end of 2018.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 15:31 (Ref:3755108)   #22
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If you're a tech junkie like me Formula E is interesting even though the speeds and/or the racing is meh. I think it will catch up. Powertrain development is now open. I think the seasonal step approach has been good. In the future supposedly chassis devolopment will be open too. We shall see...oh and the real development will be in the energy density of the batteries.

For those who have not followed, here is a good description of the very different methods of motor/transmission combinations that the teams have used:

http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2...-have-changed/
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 16:14 (Ref:3755121)   #23
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If you're a tech junkie like me Formula E is interesting even though the speeds and/or the racing is meh. I think it will catch up. Powertrain development is now open. I think the seasonal step approach has been good. In the future supposedly chassis devolopment will be open too. We shall see...oh and the real development will be in the energy density of the batteries.

For those who have not followed, here is a good description of the very different methods of motor/transmission combinations that the teams have used:

http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2...-have-changed/
Honestly, to me Formula E is some kind of wrestling and not motorsport.
But the whole pack works so damn good that each other champ/series should take as example.
Races made as TV show in great location worldwide, great drivers average level and a lot of manufacturers involved.
Manufacturers get a huge international coverage with a low cost budget.

Races and performances are really cheap and shameful sometimes, but who cares?
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 16:17 (Ref:3755122)   #24
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If you're a tech junkie like me Formula E is interesting even though the speeds and/or the racing is meh. I think it will catch up. Powertrain development is now open. I think the seasonal step approach has been good. In the future supposedly chassis devolopment will be open too. We shall see...oh and the real development will be in the energy density of the batteries.

For those who have not followed, here is a good description of the very different methods of motor/transmission combinations that the teams have used:

http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2...-have-changed/
I'm a tech junkie, but as long as we're having fans vote on who gets a faster car, I'm not interested. I've watched it a few times and try to get into it, but it feels like a joke because of things like that.

Can we decide the grid on hashtags or something?
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 16:34 (Ref:3755130)   #25
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I'm a tech junkie, but as long as we're having fans vote on who gets a faster car, I'm not interested. I've watched it a few times and try to get into it, but it feels like a joke because of things like that.

Can we decide the grid on hashtags or something?
Too true. As was mentioned earlier in this post us Millennials are complicated breed, it's a good thing I was raised somewhat old school. If that's what it takes to get interest in motorsport, its is doomed. Acutally it's why I have a hard time with Drifting as well. The cars are awesome but only it weren't a judged event.
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