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Old 11 Mar 2007, 23:11 (Ref:1864200)   #241
VilleneuveTracy
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VilleneuveTracy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridVilleneuveTracy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Hazza
"respectable"
Yes, but he has only about a dozen stock car races under his belt. Here is Tony Stewart's record after a dozen stock car races (Busch):

21st
39th
16th
17th
22nd
26th
37th
20th
40th
34th
40th
3rd

0 laps led.

JPM has had similar results but at the cup level and has shown his potential by at least qualifying well. He also has a Busch win under his belt. Thus far, I would say JPM is substantially further along than Stewart was at this stage in his stock car career. People forget that Stewart ran 36 Busch races before graduating to the cup series in 1999. In those 36 races he had a grand total of only 5 top 10's (all top 5's), 8 lead lap finishes, and 0 wins.
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1 Jacques Villeneuve Williams-Renault 81 (7 wins, 10 poles)

3 Heinz-Harald Frentzen Williams-Renault 42 (1 win, 1 pole)

Anyone could have won in the 97' Williams...
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Old 11 Mar 2007, 23:14 (Ref:1864202)   #242
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They aren't bad results by any means. There have been problems and dropped laps in most starts but still reasonable finishes. The potential is most definitely there, to my eyes anyways although I acknowledge I'm slightly biased on that one.

The qualifying is bang on, nailed. What they need is to get that Dodge working better in races. The Dodge seems to be a great qualifier and not so great in the races, in traffic. That isn't the whole story of course, but it is unhelpful.
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Old 11 Mar 2007, 23:17 (Ref:1864204)   #243
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VilleneuveTracy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridVilleneuveTracy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
For further comparison, here are Robby Gordon's first 12 NASCAR races (all cup):

18th (Daytona)
26th
42nd
38th
38th
42nd
42nd
16th (Daytona)
33rd
28th
14th (pole, 42 laps led)
34th

He would follow this up with finishes of 34th, 43rd, 41st, 41st, and 41st.
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1 Jacques Villeneuve Williams-Renault 81 (7 wins, 10 poles)

3 Heinz-Harald Frentzen Williams-Renault 42 (1 win, 1 pole)

Anyone could have won in the 97' Williams...
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Old 11 Mar 2007, 23:27 (Ref:1864208)   #244
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MikeH should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
JPM seems to be doing pretty much as good a job as Casey Mears ever did with that equipment, plus he's shown some great qualifying form even if the races are proving to be a tough learning curve. B+ so far and I'm sure he'll get quicker.
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Old 11 Mar 2007, 23:47 (Ref:1864217)   #245
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VilleneuveTracy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridVilleneuveTracy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Plus he has had some bad luck in all of his cup races aside from this one. He was on the lead lap all race in Homestead until he crashed (20th place), was rapidly moving forward at Daytona when the car's handling finally got fixed but he had to make an extra stop (for a tire problem, I believe), and was caught out of sequence at California by an ill timed caution. The only race where he hasn't had bad luck was today. He easily could have had a top 10 at Daytona and a solid top 20 at California.

Still, the goal for him for the first five races has to be to be in the top 35 in the standings and he is safely in the top 35 right now.

Ganassi's cars qualified 2nd, 4th, and 7th but were oddly not quick in the race.

Last edited by VilleneuveTracy; 11 Mar 2007 at 23:49.
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1 Jacques Villeneuve Williams-Renault 81 (7 wins, 10 poles)

3 Heinz-Harald Frentzen Williams-Renault 42 (1 win, 1 pole)

Anyone could have won in the 97' Williams...
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 02:09 (Ref:1864252)   #246
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VilleneuveTracy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridVilleneuveTracy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
JPM on the race:

JUAN PABLO MONTOYA (No. 42 Texaco/Havoline Dodge Charger) -- 22nd, highest finishing Raybestos Rookie

"It's a shame. The Texaco/Havoline Dodge car was really fast today. When we went a lap down we were checking the 48 and the M&M's car just got in the way. I had damage on my fender and from there a grille broke and we just went backwards from there and the car became undriveable. The car was good from the beginning. When you damage the fenders at a track like this you're done. We've just got to keep working on the cars and making them faster."
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1 Jacques Villeneuve Williams-Renault 81 (7 wins, 10 poles)

3 Heinz-Harald Frentzen Williams-Renault 42 (1 win, 1 pole)

Anyone could have won in the 97' Williams...
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 08:58 (Ref:1864453)   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VilleneuveTracy
Yes, but he has only about a dozen stock car races under his belt. Here is Tony Stewart's record after a dozen stock car races (Busch):

21st
39th
16th
17th
22nd
26th
37th
20th
40th
34th
40th
3rd

0 laps led.

JPM has had similar results but at the cup level and has shown his potential by at least qualifying well. He also has a Busch win under his belt. Thus far, I would say JPM is substantially further along than Stewart was at this stage in his stock car career. People forget that Stewart ran 36 Busch races before graduating to the cup series in 1999. In those 36 races he had a grand total of only 5 top 10's (all top 5's), 8 lead lap finishes, and 0 wins.
Question is how much Stewart benefited from those Busch Series races, especially since the differences in cars and tires were considerably bigger back in 1998/1999 than they are these days (for example both series' ran the exact same tire at Vegas this weekend).

So, no, at least I did in no way forget about Stewart's Busch Series starts - I just didn't put too much weight into them considering his so-so Busch Series results and also said differences.

But if one insists on mixing the two together it's going to even out more or less in the end anyway, since Montoya is running the full Busch schedule alongside the Cup one in 2007, something Stewart did not do in 1999 (he actually didn't make a single Busch Series start between 1999-2002).

Until then, however, I personally prefer comparing just the Cup stats. They are the ones that really matter, after all.
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 13:06 (Ref:1864667)   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyfan
Question is how much Stewart benefited from those Busch Series races, especially since the differences in cars and tires were considerably bigger back in 1998/1999 than they are these days (for example both series' ran the exact same tire at Vegas this weekend).

So, no, at least I did in no way forget about Stewart's Busch Series starts - I just didn't put too much weight into them considering his so-so Busch Series results and also said differences.

But if one insists on mixing the two together it's going to even out more or less in the end anyway, since Montoya is running the full Busch schedule alongside the Cup one in 2007, something Stewart did not do in 1999 (he actually didn't make a single Busch Series start between 1999-2002).

Until then, however, I personally prefer comparing just the Cup stats. They are the ones that really matter, after all.
I agree with the way you are comparing the stats. Otherwise you would have to compare "all" the experience of the drivers.
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Old 12 Mar 2007, 16:23 (Ref:1864827)   #249
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It's important not to focus too much on how Stewarts results compared with JPM's also. Stewart obtained great results and set the bar really high for rookies. I would be surprised to see many drivers matching that. It is hard to compare two rather different situations.

It is a nice yardstick though all the same and certainly interesting to look at as the season unfolds!

To do well in this game you need luck, consistency in the car and no mistakes. Neither have combined together yet (not even in Mexico) so the results so far are decent I reckon.
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Old 13 Mar 2007, 08:00 (Ref:1865389)   #250
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Old 13 Mar 2007, 08:03 (Ref:1865394)   #251
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Originally Posted by muggle not
Otherwise you would have to compare "all" the experience of the drivers.
Yeah, which would be a mess.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Knowlesy
It's important not to focus too much on how Stewarts results compared with JPM's also. Stewart obtained great results and set the bar really high for rookies. I would be surprised to see many drivers matching that. It is hard to compare two rather different situations.

It is a nice yardstick though all the same and certainly interesting to look at as the season unfolds!
Yes I should probably have added that the comparison I'm doing in the other thread is more of a fun thing, rather than an attempt to figure out which of the two is "the better driver" (which, in my opinion, is quite hard seeing as both drivers are incredible talents that have come up through very different paths).

Since Stewart's impressive rookie season in 1999 we've seen several others that have really stood out, like Jimmie Johnson and Ryan Newman in 2002 and Denny Hamlin last year, but somehow it feels more fitting comparing Montoya to Stewart since both have successfully raced US open-wheelers.
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Old 13 Mar 2007, 22:01 (Ref:1866009)   #252
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Interesting as I was only really pulling you Montoya fan's leg when I posted what I did and it sparked a well thought out reasoned discussion...

Should do it more often maybe?
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Old 13 Mar 2007, 22:29 (Ref:1866033)   #253
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I gathered you were pulling legs there Hazza, but damnit we all had to respond anyways!
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