Is LMP1 On the Verge of Death for Privateers?

[Dyson Mazda]

We all know that LMP2 is growing like crazy in the ALMS, WEC, and ELMS and that LMP1 is declining like a rock. If Lola is out HPD is the only option left for privateers to run. I wish that the ALMS would drop LMP1 for LMP2 all with pro driver lineups and a little more engine flexibility for new technologies. I did the analysis on LMP1 over the last four years and the results are not pretty. What do you guys think about the future of this class?

These are teams racing in the class (no matter how many cars they ran)

2010
ILMC: 3
ALMS: 6
LMS: 4
Le Mans: 10

2011
ILMC: 7
ALMS: 3
LMS: 2
Le Mans: 9

2012
WEC: 7
ALMS: 2
ELMS: Cut
Le Mans: 7

[The Badger]

Probably the reason the Le Mans entry is only 7 , because ELMS dont run P1 anymore .

No , I dont see issue to be honest . Personally I think privateers should stick with P2 , unless they have the technology and money to properly take on the factory teams , otherwise , whats the point ?

[MJones94]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Probably the reason the Le Mans entry is only 7 , because ELMS dont run P1 anymore .

No , I dont see issue to be honest . Personally I think privateers should stick with P2 , unless they have the technology and money to properly take on the factory teams , otherwise , whats the point ?

Yeah I totally agree. P1 was designed for manufacturers, whereas P2 was aimed for privateers. At the moment it may be bad with only Audi and Toyota, but there is a possibility that more factory teams, including Porsche could join P1 (We hope anyway). I never saw the point of a privateer team running in P1 as they would never have much of a shot of winning and only be surrounded by 4 or 5 cars in their own class they can realistically beat. The good thing is that P2 and PC is thriving at the moment, so no I am not bothered at all if I'm honest.

[lms]

the main problem is the lack of factory entries. only two factories competing in lmp1 since many years now. Peugeot vs audi in the past and now toyota vs audi. porsche from 2014 and thats it. not a lot of interest in the class from the big manufacturers for some reason...

(as someone else suggested, some privateers should run factory built engines (like an r18 engine or a toyota ts030 engine) and they should be allowed to score points for toyota and audi in the manufacturer championship. of course they would have customer chassis like an hpd or.... oak. thats the other option)

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by lms

(as someone else suggested, some privateers should run factory built engines (like an r18 engine or a toyota ts030 engine) and they should be allowed to score points for toyota and audi in the manufacturer championship. of course they would have customer chassis like an hpd or.... oak. thats the other option)

Agreed to that!

But still, what's the point of having a Privateers' Championship when Private P1 teams are dropping out if their funds run out...

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by lms

the main problem is the lack of factory entries. only two factories competing in lmp1 since many years now. Peugeot vs audi in the past and now toyota vs audi. porsche from 2014 and thats it. not a lot of interest in the class from the big manufacturers for some reason...

No interest? Ever since the WEC was founded there has been more interest than ever before in the past 10 years. It's just that programs of this scale don't come together in 6 months.

How long have we been reading about Toyota and their plans, when they first ran the Hybrid Supra, the Dome testing etc. All that took years to come to fruition so give it some time.

The only thing that puts us in a not so good position right now is the Peugeot withdrawal. If they were still around we had 3 manufacturers now and 4 in 2014 and everybody would be over the moon... one manufacturer more or less makes a lot of difference but it's all coming.

Another thing that doesn't help is that two of the hottest contenders to join have been slowed down by the earthquake so it takes a little while longer to sort itself out.

If either Nissan or Honda join we'll be in an excellent position, their commitment will force Toyota to stay so we'll be looking at Audi vs. Toyota vs. Porsche vs. Honda/Nissan in 2014.

That's amazing if you ask me, so no reason to worry.

[MJones94]

I can understand why people think P1 should be for privateers is to have a backstop, as whenever a factory team pulls out there is a lot of instability all of a sudden. The point is though, manufacturers make the racing what it is, bring in the crowds and coverage. There is no way that as many people would follow a privateer battle versus a titanic factory battle.

[lms]

Originally Posted by Acid09

If either Nissan or Honda join we'll be in an excellent position, their commitment will force Toyota to stay so we'll be looking at Audi vs. Toyota vs. Porsche vs. Honda/Nissan in 2014.

i know it may be a bit too early to discuss this but IF audi and Porsche will be racing in the same class they will probably not do it for a longer period. One of them will have to go. (it was in R.E. cant dig up but im sure many read it - another very odd thing that it wasnt mentioned who will leave, audi or porsche, I mean... I always assumed when porsche comes back they will stay for many years) As for Nissan it seems they are gradually increasing their presence but again no announcment or even a strong hint that they will consider it (then again, they dont fully know the new regs - i guess). As for honda its just a rumor that they are looking for a potential factory effort for 2013 that MAY be the 1st step toward a 2014 full factory effort. (And maybe they dont even have to worry about chassis development bc wirth will come up witha new arx im sure.)

But as you said these things take time, so.... there is hope

[MJones94]

Originally Posted by lms

i know it may be a bit too early to discuss this but IF audi and Porsche will be racing in the same class they will probably not do it for a longer period. One of them will have to go. (it was in R.E. cant dig up but im sure many read it - another very odd thing that it wasnt mentioned who will leave, audi or porsche, I mean... I always assumed when porsche comes back they will stay for many years) As for Nissan it seems they are gradually increasing their presence but again no announcment or even a strong hint that they will consider it (then again, they dont fully know the new regs - i guess). As for honda its just a rumor that they are looking for a potential factory effort for 2013 that MAY be the 1st step toward a 2014 full factory effort. (And maybe they dont even have to worry about chassis development bc wirth will come up witha new arx im sure.)

But as you said these things take time, so.... there is hope

Concerning the competition between Audi and Porsche: I feel that Audi has done tremendous things for sportscars, so will probably step down before Porsche or just after Porsche come in 2014. The extent to which Audi has moved the goalposts since 2000 has killed off privateer efforts and has raised the bar so high that only factory teams can match them. If you think of all their achievements, Audi has only one record to beat-Porsche's all time win record.

Considering Audi and Porsche are under the same umbrella, I think Audi will leave sometime between the 2014 transition stage, or just after Porsche's return to P1. I mean what more does Audi have to prove? They have essentially kept P1 sportscars alive, it would be sad to see them leave, but if you consider their contribution, I think you will agree with me that they have left a huge mark on sportscars.

[GT6]

In view of the authorities attempts to make P1 for manufacturers it is amazing there are still priviteers about

[Acid09]

Audi won't leave, they have already said that they`ve been given full approval to race Porsche, it will be used to have two different systems (petrol vs. diesel, flybrid vs. battery etc.) compete with each other... so this makes sense for VAG.

Audi has nothing to prove, sports car racing is just their thing. Where else would they go? They already do the highest-level touring car racing possible, there's no interest in F1 so as long as the company's healthy they will stay in P1.

I wouldn't be surprised if Porsche wouldn't be around for long, they`ll milk their return to Le Mans for all that it's worth PR wise and if they win 1-2 years in a row I can see them be gone again. Let's face it, as far as prototype racing goes, Audi has surpassed Porsche as the company's sports car racing make a long time ago...

[MJones94]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Audi won't leave, they have already said that they`ve been given full approval to race Porsche, it will be used to have two different systems (petrol vs. diesel, flybrid vs. battery etc.) compete with each other... so this makes sense for VAG.

Audi has nothing to prove, sports car racing is just their thing. Where else would they go? They already do the highest-level touring car racing possible, there's no interest in F1 so as long as the company's healthy they will stay in P1.

I wouldn't be surprised if Porsche wouldn't be around for long, they`ll milk their return to Le Mans for all that it's worth PR wise and if they win 1-2 years in a row I can see them be gone again. Let's face it, as far as prototype racing goes, Audi has surpassed Porsche as the company's sports car racing make a long time ago...

This is good news, I did not know this, so thanks for that.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Let's face it, as far as prototype racing goes, Audi has surpassed Porsche as the company's sports car racing make a long time ago...

This, of course, is only your opinion. Any resemblance that it may have to fact is purely coincidental.

[Purist]

A P1 class of 5-6 cars, even if they're all factory cars, doesn't look that good. To have a healthy, relatively stable, and reasonably sizable top class, you NEED at least one viable customer car.

The economy wasn't exactly white hot in the late 1980s and early '90s, but the old FIA WSPC had good grids up until they shackled, and then banned outright, the available customer cars (mainly the Porsche 962C). Montreal in September of 1990 had 30 cars or so on the grid (all prototypes); the regular 1992 rounds (when they had all 3.5-litre cars in C1) were down to 11 entries at most rounds. C1 was all works cars from Mazda, Lola, Spice, Toyota, and Peugeot, but it wasn't much of a field, and Peugeot steamrolled even the Toyotas.

BTW, does Toyota have one entry or two for Le Mans?

[GT6]

toyota has two

[MJones94]

Originally Posted by Purist

A P1 class of 5-6 cars, even if they're all factory cars, doesn't look that good. To have a healthy, relatively stable, and reasonably sizable top class, you NEED at least one viable customer car.

The economy wasn't exactly white hot in the late 1980s and early '90s, but the old FIA WSPC had good grids up until they shackled, and then banned outright, the available customer cars (mainly the Porsche 962C). Montreal in September of 1990 had 30 cars or so on the grid (all prototypes); the regular 1992 rounds (when they had all 3.5-litre cars in C1) were down to 11 entries at most rounds. C1 was all works cars from Mazda, Lola, Spice, Toyota, and Peugeot, but it wasn't much of a field, and Peugeot steamrolled even the Toyotas.

BTW, does Toyota have one entry or two for Le Mans?

This is true, and I wish this was the case, however factory outfits have raised the bar so high for privateers to compete anymore.

[alexkiller8]

a solution could be to make a rule that forces manufacter to grid at least 3 cars (2 of the official team + 1 or 2 of a customer supported team) the best 2 cars classified take points for manufacter champ while the best placed car of a team takes the points for the team champ. Basicly is a sort of regulamentation mix between fia gt1 2010 4 cars rule and moto GP work and private team organization.
The private team pays an annual leasing to grid the car with the assistence of manufacter as happens in GT500 and motoGP.
If in 2014 there will be audi, porsche, toyota and hoping for an entry of GM/chevrolet and honda in this way there will be at least 15 cars for lmp1.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

This, of course, is only your opinion. Any resemblance that it may have to fact is purely coincidental.

No, it's a fact. Porsche has pretty much surrendered prototype racing to Audi. The RS Spyders never made much of an impression in Europe and were a mere sideshow at Le Mans.

Audi has been the go-to make for sports cars racing at VAG for 14 years now, a time-span in which Porsche had no visible works presence at Le Mans whatsoever.

It's Porsches own fault, you can't stay away for that long and keep your relevance even if your name is Porsche. Audi has taken over and their winning-streak has surpassed Porsche's success in the 80s as well (and take that from me, I'm no Audi fan by any means).

One could argue now that Porsche wasn't allowed to race Audi in the past and while that's true, it doesn't change the fact that Audi has been bringing home all the hardware while Porsche has become a non-factor in prototype racing.

Right now, Porsche is living off its reputation when it comes to Le Mans, their success is becoming a more and more distant memory. So there's definitely urgency to come back, there's of course the risk that Audi proves the change of guard has happened even in a face to face duel.

[GregoryDG]

My opinion is that there should be a dozen factory cars entered in LMP1, that would be absolutely amazing. I'm belgian but refused going to Spa simply because I have something better to do than watch an Audi parade without any form of competition.

But the 2013 Spa 6 Hours is sheduled, as I hope to see factory cars from Audi and Toyota. Also DSC.com mentioned a possible factory entry from Honda next year. Finally I also hope for a Porsche (testing for 2014) or a Peugeot (they say a return in the near future is possible), who knows?

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by GregoryDG

My opinion is that there should be a dozen factory cars entered in LMP1, that would be absolutely amazing.

Well I think everyone would like that. It's just a case of enough manufacturers seeing the value in fronting the money to develop cars to enter. And just because there's factories competing does not necessarily mean they're competitive. Audi's first Le Mans win was with two other factory LMP teams counting subsidiaries entering 9 cars between them and Audi went 1-2-3 with 4th place 24 laps behind the winners.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Acid09

No interest? Ever since the WEC was founded there has been more interest than ever before in the past 10 years.

Umm no there hasn't... talk of Toyota / Jaguar / Nissan and others coming up were circulating way before WEC ever came up. I'm not even sure if Toyota cares about the whole circus outside Le Mans and Fuji. LMP2 is on the rise only because of the more Spec & BoP rulebook and the fact that the gentleman drivers and privateer teams now have FREE access to Le Mans if they just sign up for the champ.

Petrol P1 has indeed started to show signs of weakness, I mean the ones that are running there are class acts and IMO wayyyy more interesting to follow than Audi boredom at the front, but playing constant second fiddle
doesn't necessarily make a good business plan... also the Lola crisis might/will hurt Rebellion and others who might have been interested

[deggis]

Originally Posted by MJones94

This is good news, I did not know this, so thanks for that.

"News" is bit of a stretch, I guess that was mostly based on this Durheimer interview: http://be.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue...t&prev=si&p=83

[JasonM3]

Originally Posted by Chiana

LMP2 is on the rise only because of the more Spec & BoP rulebook and the fact that the gentleman drivers and privateer teams now have FREE access to Le Mans if they just sign up for the champ.

Not it all, actually.

Take a look at the 24 Hours of Le Mans entry list and you may be enlightened. The only "gentleman" driver I can see in the field is Simon Dolan, the rest are simply veterans or older drivers.

But I do agree with the first part of your statement. LMP2 is on the rise (as well as your statement) because people have pulled out of GTE for some reason. Lotus, Jota, Pecom (used to be Argentinian AF Corse team w/ Russo, Companc, and Kaffer) and Boutsen Ginion (races McLaren GT cars). I guess they wanted to enter that whole wild fray of LMP2, but I wouldn't, honestly, but I'm not them, so...

[Dyson Mazda]

I think one of the main points that is being avoided is the Lola situation. If Lola crumbles HPD is the only remaining viable option for privateers. I posted this in the ALMS thread but cutting P1 and merging P2, PC, and the Delta Wing could give us a class that looks something like this (though the Scott Tuckers of the world may not be too happy). It would be a simple fix and would make the prototype class they do have go a lot further.

IMSA Prototypes
0 Highcroft Racing Delta Wing Nissan
2 Libra Racing Radical SR-10 Ford
5 Muscle Milk Racing Oreca FLM09 Chevrolet
6 Muscle Milk Racing HPD ARX 03b Honda
7 Merchant Services Racing Oreca FLM09 Chevrolet
8 Merchant Services Racing Oreca FLM09 Chevrolet
9 RSR Oreca FLM09 Chevrolet
16 Dyson Racing Lola B12/80 Mazda
18 Performance Tech Oreca FLM09 Chevrolet
20 Dyson Racing Lola B12/80 Mazda
25 Dempsey Racing Oreca FLM09 Chevrolet
27 Dempsey Racing Lola B12/80 Mazda
37 Conquest Racing Morgan Nissan
52 PR1/Mathiasen Racing Oreca FLM09 Chevrolet
54 Black Swan Racing Lola B12/80 Honda
55 Level 5 Motorsports HPD ARX 03b Honda
95 Level 5 Motorsports HPD ARX 03b Honda
05 Core Autosport Oreca FLM09 Chevrolet
06 Core Autosport Oreca FLM09 Chevrolet

I think it would also cut off any future entrants to the DP class because this class would allow teams to go for the overall victories and give them access to Le Mans.

[deggis]

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