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Old 5 May 2016, 04:01 (Ref:3638668)   #151
BrentJackson
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Originally Posted by anthony81901 View Post
What is needed if new manufacturers are to be attracted is a clean slate, with every body starting from scratch with cars that are more market relevant. The BTCC went down the common platform path much like COTF a few years ago, but because their cars are more representative of manufacturers products, they have been more successful in bringing in new players.
I agree on this, but in a small market like Australia (and a series which has seem its television viewer base drop dramatically thanks to an alarmingly stupid television deal), making their own entirely new category isn't gonna fly unless that category is really, really cheap OR they can get support for it from another sanctioning body or series somewhere else in the world - but getting the support from worldwide while keeping the V8s is pretty much impossible now.

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Ultimately V8SC needs to weigh up the pros and cons of alienating some of its diehard supporter base with servicing the marketing needs of manufacturers.
I think they've pretty much given that base the finger with the TV deals. Now that the manufacturers are leaving the building (and don't kid yourself folks, the sanctioning body now has no leverage whatsoever on Nissan, they will get whatever they want, and if that's turbocharged fours then that's what'll be raced), they have a genuine existential crisis from which there is no getting out without seven-figure losses. The only question is how they want to lose, not if.

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And how many millions of dollars will that cost to do... And who then pays?

Its just not that simple.
Maybe not, but its coming. With this, Gen2 pretty much is untenable. They can't allow it to be Commodore Cup with the loss in the television ratings unless they want to end up with a very short field.
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Old 5 May 2016, 04:29 (Ref:3638669)   #152
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You wonder now whether GRM can keep Scotty Mac.

Could be a shocking double blow to GRM.
The other elephant in the room for them is the implication of their sponsors Wilson Security in the Panama Papers.This company has been shown in these documents to be guilty of massive tax fraud and there is no doubt the ATO is coming after them.Also they have represented themselves as an Australian company gaining massive government contracts.The Panama Papers showed that their ownership is routed through a series of shell companies.The ultimate ownership of the company is in the hands of 2 Chinese national brothers based in Hong Kong where one is currently serving a long prison sentence on bribery and corruption charges.When this all works it's way through the ATO and ACCC it is hard to see the company existing let alone retaining it's government contracts.Motor racing sponsorship will be the least of their worries.
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Old 5 May 2016, 05:41 (Ref:3638675)   #153
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Volvo Car Australia Expected To Continue In 2017 & Beyond...

...but wasn't allowed... and isn't allowed...

So perhaps this is the source of Mr Phelps' scoop... since thwarted!
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Old 5 May 2016, 06:20 (Ref:3638678)   #154
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The other elephant in the room for them is the implication of their sponsors Wilson Security in the Panama Papers.
If precedent was anything to go by, Wilson Security were probably headed for the exit gate, don't think they have ever extended a V8SC sponsorship beyond the initial contract.
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Old 5 May 2016, 06:22 (Ref:3638679)   #155
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If precedent was anything to go by, Wilson Security were probably headed for the exit gate, don't think they have ever extended a V8SC sponsorship beyond the initial contract.
They've also been in the sport in some ways over and above their commitments for a good 10 years or so.
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Old 5 May 2016, 06:23 (Ref:3638681)   #156
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Its going to be a shame not to see those Volvos running around next year, they are two cracking looking cars.

I wonder if this effects the Nissan decision in any way? Part of me thinks it might make their exit from the category easier. I'd panic if I heard that Nissan were going to hold a press conference in the next week to talk about their future in the category...

I feel sorry for the boys at GRM mainly though, it seemed that finally a team was being rewarded for all those years of doing things cheaper and cleverer than most. I'd like to say I can see some silver lining here, but...
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Old 5 May 2016, 06:44 (Ref:3638689)   #157
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I wouldn't be surprised if Volvo put Scotty in the S60 TC1 for their planned 3rd WTCC entry next year. I guess there was a reason behind the recent trip to Sweden other than his STCC ride.

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Old 5 May 2016, 06:46 (Ref:3638690)   #158
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I wonder if this effects the Nissan decision in any way? Part of me thinks it might make their exit from the category easier.
I agree, much like when Ford and Holden announced they would stop manufacturing cars in Australia. I am still unclear why GRM cannot continue to use Volvos. Wouldn't it be like other teams using Fords or Holdens without factory support.

Can a manufacturer stop a team racing their car? Surely the only genuine parts left are the badges on the grille.
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Old 5 May 2016, 06:50 (Ref:3638692)   #159
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Can a manufacturer stop a team racing their car? Surely the only genuine parts left are the badges on the grille.
They can if they own the cars and the IP.

Anything to stop GRM running the V8SC engine, COTF chassis and developing their own panels and aero kit? You know, like a real touring car.
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Old 5 May 2016, 06:57 (Ref:3638693)   #160
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Can a manufacturer stop a team racing their car? Surely the only genuine parts left are the badges on the grille.
V8SC require a manufacturer to sanction its product being raced. If they won't then the car is ineligible for competition. Has been reported that it is in the contract that GRM has to sell the cars to Volvo should the factory withdraw. Does seem a bit strange I agree, given that Volvo will have no use for them and they will probably end up stored in a shed in Gothenburg.

When Erebus and AMG terminated their agreement at the end of 2014, the team had to gain permission from Mercedes-Benz to continue racing the E63, which it duly did.
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Old 5 May 2016, 07:01 (Ref:3638694)   #161
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I agree, much like when Ford and Holden announced they would stop manufacturing cars in Australia. I am still unclear why GRM cannot continue to use Volvos. Wouldn't it be like other teams using Fords or Holdens without factory support.
Polestar developed the engine and aero package, so therefore they own it.

Also regardign when Ford announced their closure, it was clear that parts suppliers couldn't achieve the economies of scale and therefore pricing to continue to support Holden and Toyota to the same level without Ford, so the writing was on the wall there for practical reasons.
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Old 5 May 2016, 07:10 (Ref:3638696)   #162
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What is needed if new manufacturers are to be attracted is a clean slate, with every body starting from scratch with cars that are more market relevant. The BTCC went down the common platform path much like COTF a few years ago, but because their cars are more representative of manufacturers products, they have been more successful in bringing in new players.
Completely different business model, though. BTCC these days is not a career but a hobby - hardly a driver in the series that doesn't have to bring money, usually from the family. Proper manufacturers interest is very low - two Hondas and Plato cajoling Subaru into letting him run the Levorgs under the factory banner, but paid for - at least to a large part - by outside sponsors.

Sure, it works - but it is miles away from the "major league" aspirations which V8SC seems to have.
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Old 5 May 2016, 07:50 (Ref:3638702)   #163
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Polestar developed the engine and aero package, so therefore they own it.

Also regardign when Ford announced their closure, it was clear that parts suppliers couldn't achieve the economies of scale and therefore pricing to continue to support Holden and Toyota to the same level without Ford, so the writing was on the wall there for practical reasons.
Development and ownership are two completely different things but it does appear that the agreement between GRM and Polestar requires the cars to be returned at the end of the agreement.
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Old 5 May 2016, 08:10 (Ref:3638705)   #164
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why are people making a big deal about the cars? Volvo/Polestar obviously have it in the contract that the cars go back to them when the contract is finished - for the same reason why they have pulled out; because they don't want their product to be continue to be used with an engine that is totally irrelevent to what they sell.
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Old 5 May 2016, 08:52 (Ref:3638717)   #165
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They can if they own the cars and the IP.

Anything to stop GRM running the V8SC engine, COTF chassis and developing their own panels and aero kit? You know, like a real touring car.


Isn't a 'real' touring car based off a production car?
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Old 5 May 2016, 15:08 (Ref:3638819)   #166
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Does seem a bit strange I agree, given that Volvo will have no use for them and they will probably end up stored in a shed in Gothenburg.
Was it strange when they did that with the Volvo 240T's in 1986, and the Volvo S40's & 850s after 1999?

It seems like a decade old company policy that all the hardware goes back to Sweden.

Absolutly nothing wrong with that if it is in the contract.

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Isn't a 'real' touring car based off a production car?
I believe DRT was bringing a little sarcasm to the debate, and your point Samwhk is exactly right!
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Old 6 May 2016, 02:06 (Ref:3639015)   #167
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GRM still hold hope for Volvo, Scotty may leave, Nissan unaffected

And James Warburton somehow believes, “That certainly shows our rebranding to Supercars is the right choice’’
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Old 6 May 2016, 02:21 (Ref:3639019)   #168
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And Mr McKays take on proceedings, pretty fair and measured I'd have thought: Volvo departs V8 Supercars
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Old 6 May 2016, 02:35 (Ref:3639021)   #169
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Absolutly nothing wrong with that if it is in the contract.
Thanks, I didn't realise it was part of the contract.
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Old 6 May 2016, 02:37 (Ref:3639022)   #170
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Except I don't regard printing comments from "sources"

May as well just make those up... If they are not on the record don't print them (unless they suit your agenda...)
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Old 6 May 2016, 02:44 (Ref:3639023)   #171
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Except I don't regard printing comments from "sources"

May as well just make those up... If they are not on the record don't print them (unless they suit your agenda...)
I just assumed the quotes were from D.R.T.
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Old 6 May 2016, 04:10 (Ref:3639033)   #172
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GRM still hold hope for Volvo, Scotty may leave, Nissan unaffected

And James Warburton somehow believes, “That certainly shows our rebranding to Supercars is the right choice’’
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Just days after being told he had been given a multi-year extension to race the S60 by Volvo Australia, Rogers was left stunned when the Swedish car giant’s global arm knocked back the deal because they did not want to race with a V8 engine.

It is understood Rogers had struck a deal with Volvo Australia before being delivered the shattering news when a team representative travelled to Sweden to “sign’’ the extension.
You might just imagine that this is the source of Mr Phelps' optimism for the Volvo deal having been signed.
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Old 6 May 2016, 04:57 (Ref:3639038)   #173
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For me this is strange. Volvo are talking about V8 engines don't match our direction but next year they can run whatever they like. They have pulled out in a very serious manner.
Personally I feel there is more to this than is being revealed.
If I were running this series I'd be very very concerned right now!
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Old 6 May 2016, 05:32 (Ref:3639040)   #174
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And Mr McKays take on proceedings, pretty fair and measured I'd have thought: Volvo departs V8 Supercars
The comments by the local arms of Mazda,BMW and Subaru equally apply to Volvo,Nissan and Ford.If these brands are going to participate the first requirement is something compatible with world motor sport formulas not the orphan formula V8 Supercars have always been.
I don't blame the management of V8 Supercars as the death of the Australian motor industry means an Australian formula has no base.
And by the way Ford representation past the next few years almost certainly won't exist.Falcons would be long gone from the market place.Ford's aggression in only having GT40's in the Le Mans formula and not allowing a GT3 variant is an indication they will protect their IP and not allow some Australian series to patch together a race car based on one of their products.
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Old 6 May 2016, 05:49 (Ref:3639043)   #175
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The comments by the local arms of Mazda,BMW and Subaru equally apply to Volvo,Nissan and Ford.
I do find Mazda's comments interesting - what racing are they actually doing anywhere in the world? Or Subaru? I don't feel either of them can really comment on circuit racing - apart from Allan Horsley's skunkworks in the '90s we have not really heard a peep from Mazda in a lifetime. Subaru were great on gravel but apart from maybe Japanese GT have they ever done anything?

People who don't go racing don't go racing.

Anyway I think Richard Craill has smashed the argument with this:

Quote:
IS GT3 THE ANSWER?

VOLVO's unprecedented ditching of their V8 Supercar program this week once again created a robust discussion about the future direction of the regulations utilised by Australia's top racing category.

And when I mean 'robust' I of course mean 15% robust and 85% reactionary, emotional, naysayer rubbish.. but that's social media for you, isn't it?

While discussions about 'consumer relevance versus entertainment' were bashed over people's heads on Facebook, the underlying thought by many was 'Should GT3 replace the current regulations?'

This may surprise some, but I don't think so.

I will admit that there is significant appeal to the thought of Australia's top racing teams all running GT3 machinery for 16 race meetings a year in Australia and New Zealand. Imagine, Shane van Gisbergen in a Triple Eight McLaren, or Garth Tander and James Courtney trading paint in a pair of Walkinshaw Porsche's - and that's before we get to a factory-backed Nissan team of four GTRs.

But I've been around the cars for years now - I was PR for the Bathurst 12 Hour when we introduced GT3 cars into the race in 2011 (which, by the way, a lot of people said was a mistake. Huh.) so, without sounding like I'm blowing smoke up my own backside, I feel like I've been part of the education process for Aussie fans.

And unquestionably, the cars are extremely popular relative to pretty much anything else in the sport here, save Supercars.

Yet why do 40,000 people go the 12 Hour when 200,000 go to the 1000?

And if we had GT3 cars in the 1000, would that mean 300,000 people would go instead? I don't think so.

If people want GT3 cars to be part of their lives so desperately, the product is there, right now, for them to embrace in big numbers should they wish - often at cheaper prices than attending a major Supercars event.

And yet, as sensational as it is, only a couple of thousand people will attend the Phillip Island 101 GT3 race in a few weeks time despite the fact a plethora of top V8 names (and teams) will be racing there.

My point is this: If the vast, overarching majority of Australian motorsport fans wanted GT3 cars as the premier formula they would have started going to GT rounds and stopped going to Supercar rounds.

Yet, they haven't.

That's because I don't think today's 'average' motorsport fan cares as much about the actual cars racing in front of them as perhaps we think they do - or how they used to. If Craig Lowndes left Triple Eight tomorrow to go and drive for a new Supercar team run by Chinese manufacturer Great Wall, I doubt he'd lose fans because of it. Shane van Gisbergen is the same story. And Scott McLaughlin..

Top-flight motorsport is now as much, if not more, about the drivers and the product as it is about the cars. NASCAR is the ultimate proof of that: I bet Toyota get more interest in their products because of Kyle Bush's antics, rather than for the V8-powered Camry-shaped car he drives.

And before you say anything yes, I know Volvo - well, Polestar - have stated that the technology in Supercars doesn't suit their future direction. That's fine. You'll get some and you'll loose some.

But Toyota don't sponsor the Adelaide Crows because the Footy players run around the Adelaide Oval driving 22 identical Corollas: They sponsor them because of the marketing impact they can make through the sport and because they're a team of champions who were terrific last yea... err.. I digress. Anyway, Supercars is the same thing.

There is a place for the hardcore purist fans to go and see hardcore, purist racing. I, for instance, love nothing more than a good Sports Sedan race where quite literally, anything goes. But I'll only be watching with a few thousand people at best.

What Supercars and their superstars need is a new, low-cost formula of cars that look awesome, sound sensational, are relatively quick and are good to drive but most importantly, produce great racing.

It needs to be a formula that can attract manufacturers but doesn't rely on it to succeed.

The general fan doesn't care if they cost $500,000 or $100,000 - as long as Scotty McLaughlin and Jamie Whincup can bang doors on the final lap of a race, I bet you a million dollars that they'll still go home going 'how good was that!' before instantly buying tickets to the next race.

Five per cent of them won't like it. Those people will go home thinking 'I'm annoyed that car wasn't based on the road-going Commodore and that it wasn't once a road car and that (insert generic comment that should be from the 1970s here). But my response to them would be, 'tough'.

The world we live in these days is geared towards entertainment and putting on an exciting and competitive show. There's a reason so many watch and go to Big Bash games and why crowds are flocking to the AFL in record numbers thanks to the free-flowing, high scoring, entertaining footy being played by the Adelaide Crow.. err.. the league this year.

If GT3 was the answer to domestic touring car racing's 'problem', I reckon the BTCC and DTM would already be there. But they're not.

GT3 has its place as a predominantly Pro/Am formula for longer races, and the purists love it - and if the cool cars involved bring in new fans then that's all the better. It has its place, it's wonderful and it's great to see it thriving here and all around the world.

But to finish my admittedly flimsy cricketing analogy, GT3 is test match cricket. Some events get great crowds and great TV, but on the whole it's not the most popular form of the sport.

Supercars, on the other hand, are the Big Bash. Plenty of people go, it rates well and the commercial dollars are tipped into it.

Our current product has resulted is the best Touring Car category on the planet. There's more depth in competition than in the WTCC, the cars are better than in the BTCC and the racing is better than in the DTM. A smart set of cost effective and racing-driven rules for the future can only enhance and improve this position.

Supercars and GT3 both have their place, and both are brilliant. Why can't we have both?

Craillsy

(NOTE: if Supercars does, by chance, go to GT3 regulations at some point in the future expect me to naturally claim it was all my idea and that it was a superb one from the start!)
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