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Old 28 Nov 2010, 23:48 (Ref:2796959)   #1
Hubble
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Hubble should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridHubble should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
What do points make....?

Due to severe boredom and a distinct unwillingness to do any housework today I spent a while reviewing the F1 stats for this year to see what difference in position (if any) the new points system had made over the previous system.......

In terms of the constructors championship, there was no difference in position at all when the 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 system was applied to this years results

There were a few changes in the drivers championship though.......

Hamilton to 3rd from 4th (100pts)
Webber to 4th from 3rd (97pts)
Petrov from 13th to 12th (9pts - higher courtesy of his 5th place finish in Hungary)
Kobayashi from 12th to 13th (9pts)
de la Rosa from 17th to 16th (2pts)
Buemi from 16th to 17th= (1pt)
Heidfeld from 18th to 17th= (1pt)

I know what you're thinking....just how bored do you have to be to do that......but consider that last year I wasted a whole day going through the finishing positions of every session (practice 1,2 & 3, qualifying and race) to see who had been most consistent across the whole season in terms of finishing position........20pts for 1st, 19pts for 2nd etc down to 1pt for 20th, with no points being allocated for non starters, and all based on the finishing positions from the F1 website classifications.....I wanted to prove that Button (who I'm no fan of) wasn't the most consistent driver over the entire season......

Anyway, I've done it now, and I'm putting it out here to be picked at, shot down and generally ridiculed.......have fun......

Phil
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Old 29 Nov 2010, 09:11 (Ref:2797073)   #2
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I've gone back one step further with just points for the first 6 finishers (10, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1)

and the top 5 would have finished like this....

1) Vettel 84 points
2) Alonso 81 points
3) Hamilton 76 points (+1 position)
4) Webber 74 points (-1 position)
5) Button 59 points

So whatever way we do it, Vettel would have been champion.
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Old 29 Nov 2010, 10:23 (Ref:2797096)   #3
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duke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridduke_toaster should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
What about dropped scores on the old drop-the-worst-third-in-each-half-of-the-season?
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Old 30 Nov 2010, 03:05 (Ref:2797453)   #4
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I might go back and do the old 9,6,4,3,2,1 and then the CART 20, 16,14,12,10,8,6,5,4,3,2,1.

Just to see how it turns out on my two preferred systems.....
It will infact make little if any real difference. None of them do because they are all based on the same set assumptions

Last edited by Teretonga; 30 Nov 2010 at 03:11.
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Old 30 Nov 2010, 07:24 (Ref:2797512)   #5
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Only way Vettel doesnt get it if you go back to pre '50s scoring
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Old 30 Nov 2010, 20:25 (Ref:2797821)   #6
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jab should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridjab should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridjab should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Teretonga View Post
I might go back and do the old 9,6,4,3,2,1 and then the CART 20, 16,14,12,10,8,6,5,4,3,2,1.

Just to see how it turns out on my two preferred systems.....
It will infact make little if any real difference. None of them do because they are all based on the same set assumptions
I've done both

9-6-4-3-2-1
S Vettel 79
F Alonso 76
L Hamilton 73
M Webber 72
J Button 59
F Massa 34
N Rosberg 28
R Kubica 26
M Schumacher 11
R Barrichello 6
A Sutil 5
V Petrov 3
K Kobayashi 1
N Hulkenberg 1
V Liuzzi 1

Red Bull 151
McLaren 132
Ferrari 110
Mercedes 39
Renault 29
Williams 7
Force India 6
Sauber 1

CART
S Vettel 224
F Alonso 222
M Webber 217
L Hamilton 214
J Button 199
F Massa 144
N Rosberg 142
R Kubica 138
M Schumacher 87
R Barrichello 62
A Sutil 59
K Kobayashi 43
V Petrov 35
V Liuzzi 32
N Hulkenberg 31
J Alguersuari 24
S Buemi 22
P de la Rosa 12
N Heidfeld 11
H Kovalainen 1

Red Bull 441
McLaren 413
Ferrari 366
Mercedes 229
Renault 173
Williams 93
Force India 91
Sauber 66
Toro Rosso 46
Lotus 1

I've done the CART system for quite a few seasons now and I do like it as a system. Given that I now no longer consider a championship representative of anything, I'm swaying back towards favouring a system of consistency rather than one with a greater emphasis on wins, though the current system is fine

The CART system is particularly interesting because it offers the same number of points in total as the current F1 system (101), but there are less points for a win - 1st-2nd is the same ratio as the previous F1 system, but the rest of the positions are effectively worth more than under that system. So it's good for consistency but doesn't totally devalue a win. And gives points to the top 12 which is better than 8 or 10
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Old 1 Dec 2010, 06:45 (Ref:2797965)   #7
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Given that I now no longer consider a championship representative of anything,
I'm betting that it would have been more representative had Mark actually won it
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Old 1 Dec 2010, 16:38 (Ref:2798193)   #8
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jab should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridjab should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridjab should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
err, no. First posted the idea of dumping the championship on my blog before Mark had even won a race

Championships don't prove anything. They're a decent indicator but people's own top 10s of a season and of all time are nearly always different to what the stats say. The idea that the championship shows who the best driver is is a myth
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Old 2 Dec 2010, 15:00 (Ref:2798652)   #9
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The idea that the championship shows who the best driver is is a myth
Well, unless we go for spec cars, it's the best we have....
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Old 2 Dec 2010, 15:15 (Ref:2798662)   #10
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Well, unless we go for spec cars, it's the best we have....
Even spec cars wouldn't show who the best drivers is. Two reasons:

1) There are always good teams and bad teams in spec series.
2) A particular car may suit some drivers' styles, but not others.

I think people need to stop trying to objectively assess who the best driver is. It cannot be done. Motorsport is a team game. We all have our opinions on who the best driver is, but it cannot be proven.
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Old 2 Dec 2010, 17:04 (Ref:2798693)   #11
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does it need to be definitively proven? i thought the back and forth was part of the fun.
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Old 2 Dec 2010, 18:35 (Ref:2798737)   #12
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does it need to be definitively proven? i thought the back and forth was part of the fun.
It is part of the fun. it's all an opinion anyway, a view of what is reality in the world from our own position and thinking.
I'd agree that there is no real objective way of telling who is the best.
But I also think there is far less between the contenders than we realise.
A lot of it is simply their psychological make up and they opportunities that have come their way and the decisions and mistakes they have made.

The points system.
No points system is perfect but the consistency in results after applying several systems to this years championship should tell you that any system giving reasonable balance to the importance of a win and then spacing things closer as you move down the field will give much the same result.

Whether or not the result of the championship is reliable in determining the best driver is another thing altogether. The results of the championship may give us the most successful combination of entrant/constructor and driver, and that is the team element to the WDC result. (team between driver and entrant). The WCC gives us the most successful team.

That doesn't mean it is the best team, or the best team relative to its use of resources, although if you compared the budgets of McLaren, Ferrari, RBR, Renault and Mercedes, you would probably be safe in arguing that Red Bull made the most out of its resources...
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Old 2 Dec 2010, 19:08 (Ref:2798752)   #13
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You can't say that Schumacher, Clark, Fangio, Senna, Prost or Lauda is better that someone else by looking top 10s, that's a joke. Only wins and podiums matter to me.
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Old 2 Dec 2010, 19:29 (Ref:2798764)   #14
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does it need to be definitively proven?
No.
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Old 2 Dec 2010, 21:21 (Ref:2798819)   #15
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I think people need to stop trying to objectively assess who the best driver is. It cannot be done.
Indeed. The F1 fan culture, especially on the net, has for some reason developed this need to be objective about everything - an "I'm right, you're wrong" or "this is fact" kind of attitude. A lot F1 fans (maybe people in general these days?) tend to forget it's all about opinions and not facts

The championship decides the champion. Opinion decides who the best driver was - there is no right or wrong answer. So beyond commercial pressures, is there really any need for a championship? That's the point I'm making

That said, I do like studying championships and points systems because it's a good way of researching and does give at least a small indication, particularly in the midfield with drivers that got overlooked with the old top 6 system because they never scored points - Herbert in 1997, for instance. But I don't take any definitive conclusions from them
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Old 2 Dec 2010, 23:21 (Ref:2798877)   #16
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Hubble should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridHubble should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Opinion decides who the best driver was - there is no right or wrong answer
I think anyone who says it was Yuji Ide might have some explaining to do....
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Old 3 Dec 2010, 00:21 (Ref:2798896)   #17
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I think anyone who says it was Yuji Ide might have some explaining to do....
Yes. It is an opinion but some people may have trouble justifying their opinion...
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