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Old 23 Jan 2003, 02:04 (Ref:483087)   #1
RWC
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RWC should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
What's with shumachers penalty at siverstone 98?

I've been meaning to ask about this for ages,though i suspect there is no clear answer.I missed the race and forgot most of the talk about the stop and go penalty aferwards.
Was the stop and go penalty he took legal?Was it really after the race?I know it was after the finnish line (but in the pit lane)
What did the fia have to say about it(not that i want their opinion...)?
Actually-what was the penalty for anyway...
thanks all
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 02:16 (Ref:483097)   #2
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avsfan733 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
as far as i understand it wasn't and they should have just added the time to the end of his race. Because the pit was after the finish line he was already classified as having completed the number of laps specified meaning he had finished the race and by that point the stop and go was kind of an insult to all involved
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 04:58 (Ref:483152)   #3
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Evilsenna should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
For that one, he should have had a 25sec penalty after the race!
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 07:02 (Ref:483191)   #4
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Re: What's with shumachers penalty at siverstone 98?

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Originally posted by RWC
Actually-what was the penalty for anyway...
Overtaking Alex Wurz, under yellows during the safety car period. The reason that the result was allowed to stand was that the stewards informed the team just after the time allowed to give the penalty. So, guilty as charged, but got off with a technicality. It was the first GP i ever went to, and must say, after sitting in the rain for 10 hours, it really ruined (an already miserable) the day.

The Bombay cinema owner steward bloke got banned (for a while) which was a relief.
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 08:20 (Ref:483221)   #5
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Apparently he passed a backmarker while under yellows. The cars lined behind Safety car were Hakkinen, Fissichella (1 lap down; can't remember, could be Wurz as Mr V said, but a Benetton anyway) and Schumacher. After the SC pulled out, apparently Schumacher passed (or at least he was not several car-lengths behind) Fissi, before the start-line.

The rules said that if the penalty was awarded with I don't know how many laps before the race ends, the penalty should be served in last lap. They gave him the stop and go with 2 laps to go. That is he entered the pits, but actually the line was before his box. It wouldn't count anyway, since he would have won that race even if he served the penalty and subsequently cross the line. The 25 seconds added at the total race time rule came after they saw what happened there.

Mr V is a bit wrong here. The technicality that he mentioned had the effect that the stewards completely dropped the penalty, several hours later. (anyway, they were too late, they eventually handed Jean Todt the penalty, but it actually was a piece of handwritten paper, not the official form. It was rejected by Jean Todt, they came back with the proper form, and that caused even more delay)
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 11:39 (Ref:483343)   #6
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RWC should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Ah,yeah i remember now.The stewards giving the official notification too late rings a bell.
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 13:02 (Ref:483433)   #7
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jase should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridjase should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally posted by RWC
Ah,yeah i remember now.The stewards giving the official notification too late rings a bell.
I'm going to get confirmation on this, but from my recollection, the ORIGINAL notification of penalty came within the set time. The team manager who has to see and sign each notification of a penalty refused and delayed until it was too late.

Therefore, as correctly mentioned the time should have been added to the race time.
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 13:06 (Ref:483438)   #8
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It's also worth mentioning that during a race, the pit lane is deemd to be part of the track and therefore 'live' circuit.
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 13:18 (Ref:483448)   #9
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jase should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridjase should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Correct Stephen, also, the pit exit remains open after the end of the race for 10 - 15 minutes (why? beats me!) so in theory, all parts of the circuit are still live even after the flag has been taken. If you recall, MS took his penalty at his box then drove out of the pit lane did another circuit and pulled back into the pits.

(Piglet, am I correct on this?)
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 13:31 (Ref:483461)   #10
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That was his 'wave at the crowd' lap
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 13:54 (Ref:483483)   #11
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BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
That's one of only 3 races in recent history where the guy who took the chequered flag first wasn't the guy who got to the top step of the podium, and they've all been farcical.

Silverstone 1998 was basically an official mistake, but it was galling to see him take a win he didn't deserve.

Austria this year, we've all said enough about, sauffice to say that it was the worst moment in motorsport since Senna died. Maybe even worse.

Speaking of Senna, the third was Japan 1989, when Senna was immediately disqualified by the Alain Prost Supporters Club (the FIA) after the collision they had, so Nannini lucked into his one win.
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 14:01 (Ref:483493)   #12
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jase should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridjase should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Silverstone 1998 was basically an official mistake, but it was galling to see him take a win he didn't deserve.
Can you have an un-official mistake?
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 18:11 (Ref:483724)   #13
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Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
That's one of only 3 races in recent history where the guy who took the chequered flag first wasn't the guy who got to the top step of the podium, and they've all been farcical.
What about the race last year where Pele missed the winner? I guess the runner up was the first driver to get the chequered flag in that race ...
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 21:43 (Ref:483886)   #14
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Nope. The guy in third place (Coulthard), as Ralf was immediately behind Michael as they crossed the finish line - Pele standing with his back against them.
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 21:58 (Ref:483900)   #15
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i remember Michaels out lap after he had taken his 10 sec penalty in the pits ( after the cheg flag ).....he was really going for it , i wonder if he was going to get fined for that , as that must be classed dangerous to do that as many other cars could have backed off ......as the back markers wouldnt have to been expeccting to re lapped after the winner had finished the race , and was still at racing speed .
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 22:50 (Ref:483967)   #16
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Piglet should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridPiglet should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridPiglet should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by jasongore
Correct Stephen, also, the pit exit remains open after the end of the race for 10 - 15 minutes (why? beats me!) so in theory, all parts of the circuit are still live even after the flag has been taken. If you recall, MS took his penalty at his box then drove out of the pit lane did another circuit and pulled back into the pits.

(Piglet, am I correct on this?)
Ohhh can't really remember, it was the year before I first worked the GP and I was spectating...Not sure about the timing of serving the penalty - Do they have to serve written notification - isn't it all done via the electronic thingy system?

I think it was along the lines of the fact that the pit lane is technically race track so it was OK.

I'll try and find out from someone who might know...

Last edited by Piglet; 23 Jan 2003 at 22:50.
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Old 23 Jan 2003, 23:09 (Ref:483986)   #17
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jase should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridjase should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Piglet
......Do they have to serve written notification - isn't it all done via the electronic thingy system?
Think this incident precipitated move from written notification to via timing screens.

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I'll try and find out from someone who might know...
Thought you might
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Old 24 Jan 2003, 03:50 (Ref:484156)   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Red

Mr V is a bit wrong here. The technicality that he mentioned had the effect that the stewards completely dropped the penalty, several hours later. (anyway, they were too late, they eventually handed Jean Todt the penalty, but it actually was a piece of handwritten paper, not the official form. It was rejected by Jean Todt, they came back with the proper form, and that caused even more delay)
How was i wrong? He (Schumacher) overtook under yellows, thats what i meant by guilty as charged, then, because the stewards cocked up he got off on a technicality. (as i said earlier)
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Old 24 Jan 2003, 11:53 (Ref:484375)   #19
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OK, here's how it goes.

The SC pulled aside on lap 49 (out of 60). The incident occured that lap.

Now let's read the Sporting Regs, as it was written in 1998:
=========================================================
57) Should the stewards decide to impose a time penalty, the following procedure will be followed :

a) The stewards shall, no later than twenty-five minutes after the moment at which the Incident occurred, give written notification of the time penalty which has been imposed to an official of the team concerned. Notification of the penalty, which will include the time at which the steward's decision was made, will also be displayed on the timing monitors.

b) Subject to e) below, from the time the steward's decision is notified on the timing monitors the relevant driver may cover no more than three complete laps before entering the pits and proceeding to his pit where he shall remain for the period of the time penalty.

During the time the car is stationary it may not be worked on unless the engine stops, in which case it may be started after the time penalty period has elapsed.

c) When the time penalty period has elapsed the driver may rejoin the race.

d) Any breach or failure to comply with Articles 57 b) or 57 c) may result in the car being excluded.

e) If an Incident for which a time penalty is imposed occurs with 12 or less complete laps remaining to the finish of the race, the stewards shall have the right to add the time penalty to the elapsed time of the driver concerned.

=========================================================

The rule e) is a bit stupid though: does the 'concerned driver' have to enter his pit, but he's not obliged to do that in less that 3 laps from the notification, or he doesn't and in that case he will get the penalty time added to the total time? I don't suppose that both of them, which is completely unfair, to be punished twice for the same offence. Anyway, Michael Schumacher did nothing wrong. He entered the pits in the last lap, which also was in the 'no more than 3 laps' frame. (the final notification came with 2 laps to go)

After that incident, the article 57) was changed to his current form:
=========================================================
55) The stewards may impose any one of two penalties on any driver involved in an Incident:
a) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping at the pit;
b) A ten-second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop at his pit for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race.

However, should any of the above penalties be imposed during the last five laps, or after the end of a race, Article 56b) below will not apply and 25 seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned.

56) Should the stewards decide to impose a time penalty, the following procedure will be followed :
a) The stewards will give written notification of the time penalty which has been imposed to an official of the team concerned and will ensure that this information is also displayed on the timing monitors.
b) From the time the steward’s decision is notified on the timing monitors the relevant driver may cover no more than three complete laps before entering the pits and proceeding to his pit where he shall remain for the period of the time penalty. Whilst a car is stationary in the pits as a result of incurring a time penalty it may not be worked on. However, if the engine stops it may be started after the time penalty period has elapsed.
c) When the time penalty period has elapsed the driver may rejoin the race.
d) Any breach or failure to comply with Articles 56 b) or 56 c) may result in the car being excluded.

=========================================================

Which is a lot better.

The technicallity that we were talking about (at least me.. ) was the paragraph a) from the article 57. The notification did NOT came in proper form and was NOT displayed on the timig monitors. (and yes Jasongore, it did arrive in time, I believe. Not sure though). The second notification, which was OK did not, so the stewards completely removed the time penalty. But that happened several hours later.

PS: That's the 2002 Sporting Regs, which introduced the 'drive through' penalty.

Last edited by Red; 24 Jan 2003 at 12:03.
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Old 24 Jan 2003, 12:56 (Ref:484432)   #20
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jase should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridjase should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally posted by Red
[B...The notification did NOT came in proper form and was NOT displayed on the timig monitors. (and yes Jasongore, it did arrive in time, I believe. Not sure though).....[/B]
Confused, just want a clarification, how do you know the penalty was not in proper form??
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Old 24 Jan 2003, 12:58 (Ref:484436)   #21
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Red should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Sorry, it was written indeed, but handwritten on a piece of paper. Did not have FIA official logo, etc.. Besides, it was not on the monitors too. How do I know that it happened that way... well, I remember statements made by FIA and Ferrari after the race...

Last edited by Red; 24 Jan 2003 at 13:02.
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Old 3 Feb 2003, 15:02 (Ref:494933)   #22
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Michael Schumacher lapped Alex Wurz on lap 43(out of 60) under yellow flags which meant that he had to serve a stop and go but the stewards were debating about whether to send out the Safety Car at the time and Schumacher's penalty was sidelined. Ferrari were notified of the penalty 3 minutes too late(ie 28 minutes after the incident). There was all that hoo-hah over the application of the rules and the penalty wasn't displayed on the monitors and the rules say that a stop and go has to be taken within 3 laps. By the time everything was confirmed there were 3 laps of the race to go which meant that Schumacher was entitled to do two complete laps of the track and then drive his final lap as an 'in lap' and take the penalty on that lap, it just so happened that this was AFTER the finishing line. That's how I saw it anyway. It was a crazy race and it was good fun.

Christopher Hilton's book, Michael Schumacher The Ferrari Years, breaks it down in real time.
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Old 3 Feb 2003, 19:58 (Ref:495267)   #23
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What about the race last year where Pele missed the winner?
The FIA should have been severly punished and fined for that cockup!
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Old 3 Feb 2003, 20:37 (Ref:495297)   #24
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Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
That's one of only 3 races in recent history where the guy who took the chequered flag first wasn't the guy who got to the top step of the podium, and they've all been farcical.

Silverstone 1998 was basically an official mistake, but it was galling to see him take a win he didn't deserve.

Austria this year, we've all said enough about, sauffice to say that it was the worst moment in motorsport since Senna died. Maybe even worse.

Speaking of Senna, the third was Japan 1989, when Senna was immediately disqualified by the Alain Prost Supporters Club (the FIA) after the collision they had, so Nannini lucked into his one win.

I wonder how many more were there? Monza '56 perhaps?
I would say Senna's death in Imola '94 was far worse than Ferrari's cock-up in Austria '02. I'd rather see a fix than a death.
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Old 3 Feb 2003, 20:44 (Ref:495305)   #25
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I would say Senna's death in Imola '94 was far worse than Ferrari's cock-up in Austria '02. I'd rather see a fix than a death.
I'd rather see neither.
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