IMSA TUSC 2015 Entries, Schedule, and Rumors

[Rcz]

Meh, still too restricted to me. Just give us the 700hp prototypes please.

[Ginaro Zukovsky]

Would we even know if the ACO had adjusted the P2s, given they don't seem to have ever released a BoP sheet (unlike ALMS)?

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Ginaro Zukovsky

Would we even know if the ACO had adjusted the P2s, given they don't seem to have ever released a BoP sheet (unlike ALMS)?

Umm dunno what you're talking about since all the WEC/LM24 BoP bulletins can be found here
http://www.fia.com/sport/competitors...pionship%3A100
They do however only show the current year - though older ILMC and whatever sheets can still be found via google if lucky

Only ELMS hides them, but they too can be digged up as proved here few months ago (also the latest round was publicly announced)

edit: I would have to say however that I have no idea what the initial default/baseline values for say the new Oak coupe are since I don't even remember the last time LMP2 was mentioned in one of those sheets. Guess I could figure restrictor sizes and stuff by looking at the regs and other cars

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by David Land

DTM is the LAST thing I want top tier US sportscar racing to be.

Spec, ugly cars, with 'road relevant' body kits, and DRS to boot because they can't race properly on their own.

Please get as far from that formula as possible.

I doubt anyone here wants DTM, but have you ever watched a Super GT race? The GT500 cars look much better than the DTMs (They looked even better before the merger), have aero development, tire wars and no DRS, so they're much faster than DTM (faster than a LMP1-L actually) and still produce awesome racing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NophDjf0TQA&t=40m18s

Not that they'd make sense for TUSCC though, since they're still a lot more expensive than both P2 and DP.

[TheDude]

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

I doubt anyone here wants DTM, but have you ever watched a Super GT race? The GT500 cars look much better than the DTMs (They looked even better before the merger), have aero development, tire wars and no DRS, so they're much faster than DTM (faster than a LMP1-L actually) and still produce awesome racing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NophDjf0TQA&t=40m18s

Not that they'd make sense for TUSCC though, since they're still a lot more expensive than both P2 and DP.

Prototypes should be Prototypes, no road car bodywork

Super GT cars arent faster much than DTM cars (most down to engine power, since they share same bodywork) . DP > DTM/SGT

[Deleted]

IIRC Sam Collins said that the price range was similar to LMP2

Anyway while GT500 might be superior to the DTM wagons and rulesets in every single aspect, and as I said previously the speeds and performance/engine/hybrid/tire specs are impressive, they still look terrible and generic in comparison to previous years

[Fogelhund]

Ultimately it isn't the cars, the rules, or even the cost that is the problem here. Changing to a new set of rules isn't going to solve the #1 issue, which is quite simply this management group will never preside over long-term success, and any success they had in the past is mostly in spite of themselves.

The fix is new management, top down.

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by TheDude

Super GT cars arent faster much than DTM cars (most down to engine power, since they share same bodywork)

Nope, Super GT allows aero development and they have better tires.
Here's a comparison using LMP1, LMP2, DTM and GT500:

Red Bull Ring:
LMP2:
Zytek Z11SN Nissan - 1:23.078
DTM:
Mercedes C-Coupe DTM - 01:25.175

Fuji:
GT500:
Nissan GTR GT500 - 1:28.799
LMP1-L:
Rebellion Lola Toyota - 1:29.250
LMP2:
Oak Morgan Nissan - 1:32.938

Originally Posted by TheDude

DP > DTM/SGT

Originally Posted by Chiana

IIRC Sam Collins said that the price range was similar to LMP2

Anyway while GT500 might be superior to the DTM wagons and rulesets in every single aspect, and as I said previously the speeds and performance/engine/hybrid/tire specs are impressive, they still look terrible and generic in comparison to previous years

He said that the DTM cars were around €880k and that the GT500s were likely even more expensive. And yeah they looked much better before, the Honda HSV was a thing of beauty

[Ginaro Zukovsky]

Originally Posted by Chiana

edit: I would have to say however that I have no idea what the initial default/baseline values for say the new Oak coupe are since I don't even remember the last time LMP2 was mentioned in one of those sheets. Guess I could figure restrictor sizes and stuff by looking at the regs and other cars

Well we were talking about P2 BoP, not P1/GTE, which I've seen on the FIA site for the past couple of years, that's why I mentioned P2 was never in any of the BoP sheets

Since we're posting P2 v GT500 comparisons, from Sepang:
1:55.456 - GT500 2013
1:57.579 - Morgan P2 2013

[chernaudi]

Super GT cars have about a 100 more horsepower than LMP2 cars do, which is the issue with the TUSC DP/LMP2 balance. Even allowing LMP2 cars to run their own tires built for them, be it by Continental or whoever else, probably won't erase the whole problem.

From '09-'13, the Lexus SC430 ran the same engine that Rebellion were/are using, and it's thought that the Toyota TS030/TS040 engine is based on the same basic block and heads package. Now, the GT500 cars are running 2.0T inline 4s that also were legal (and theoretically still are) in LMP1. And they too make over 550bhp.

As far as the DP formula, the ultra strict, quasi-spec, NASCAR-like chassis and aero rules did breed in a cost cap. In LMP2, the ACO insisted on a cost cap, and cars that didn't meet it could face BoP penalties intended to favor the cost capped cars.

One thing that both formulas had in common were rules that discouraged any serious aero/chassis/powertrain development. In fact, in LMP2, the only way any major in-season change beyond basic BoP would be allowed is though a technical waiver, which those were/are issued few an far in between. Same thing with the DP cars.

Big problem is that both LMP2 and DP have in-bred cost caps and most of the teams don't wanna spend more money than they have/want to to compete. As much as a lot of us want LMP1 back in the US outside of the WEC, the factory involvement of Audi, Porsche, and even Toyota would outstrip the entire investment of the whole of the TUSC prototype grid. Even Rebellion's budget would cover a lot of the grid's bills even.

[TF110]

Lmp2 is 900kg. GT500 in 2013 was 1100kg + success ballast, yet were still faster. The restrictor size was comparable to the RV8 in the SC430 and Rebellion last year. So ~520-560hp. Rebellion has a decent budget, but they wouldnt outspend by huge margins. Its too bad tusc wont go and be brave and actually have Chevy and Ford step up to lmp1. Seems like theyre content with slowing the p2's artificially so 'their teams' dont need to make new cars.

[Maelochs]

"Its too bad tusc wont go and be brave and actually have Chevy and Ford step up to lmp1."

TF110, I don't believe you thought this through.

What power would TUSC have to force any manufacturer to build any car? All TUSC could do would be to ban DP and P2 (which would halve the grid and alienate a lot of the teams it needs to survive, and the factory support it also needs) and then watch as the series died.

TUSC can make whatever rules it wants, but it cannot convince the boards, and more important the backers of Ford and GM (one barely avoided bankruptcy, the other survived only because of a government bailout) to invest at minimum dozens of millions of dollars to build cars which could not win a race anywhere outside of North America, or dozens of dozens of millions to get beat by Audi overseas.

TUSC could be so "brave" as to say, "We will only allow blank-sheet factory prototypes that conform to international LMP1 rules" ... and who would race there? It would be a couple years before such cars could be designed and built---but such cars would Never be designed or built because there is simply no measurable return on such an investment.

A great strategy to suggest if you want TUSC to fold as quickly as possible; otherwise ... it just doesn't make sense. "Their teams"? TUSC has no teams; it does help fund a few, but it doesn't fund subsidize Ford or Chevy--quite the other way around.

Yes, TUSC did what it could to allow existing teams to run use existing cars---the alternative was to have no teams running no cars.

There is simply nothing whatsoever TUSC could say or do to compel or inspire GM or Ford to build P1s.

[ThatGuy]

I think if the series did switch to LMP1 regulations, the OEMs would just run engine programs and leave the chassis to the Rileys/ORECAs of the world. (Aside from Honda/HPD.)

[MagVanisher]

That would work, but the cost is the problem to some teams like Michael Shank Racing.

The DP philosophy of "low cost and close racing" will not apply to LMP1. And come to think of it, seems that "low cost and close racing" has been thrown out in favor of "high cost, brand domination with Chevrolet (in the P class) and scripted races".

[TF110]

Thats what I mean by stepping up to lmp, as in running an engine in an lmp1 chassis. There was no reason they had to drop the class. Thats my point. The whole dp's being the top class screams 'cheap' and biased. Not just that, they force p2's on a spec tire not even made for them. The wec makes manufacturers with hybrids run in a class, a similar philosophy could go in tusc. Not forcing them to be hybrids, but making the Chevy's and Ford's supply engines in an lmp1. They make near the same power anyway!

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

That would work, but the cost is the problem to some teams like Michael Shank Racing.

Michael Shank can always do PC/P3 or IMSA Lites, or go working at Burger King if his wallet gets empty.

[MagVanisher]

I like that last suggestion, Chiana. He should become a burger fool once his money ran out thanks to those upgrades.

[Maelochs]

Whence come those P1 chassis?

I'd certainly watch, but the real deal with P1 is the fact that the teams are allowed to develop. The real problem with P2 is that the cars are effectively sealed---good for keeping costs down but it takes some of the thrill away.

P1 chassis are not just sitting around for purchase--and if the same non-development rules were in place it wouldn't matter anyway.

[DeezPutz]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

I like that last suggestion, Chiana. He should become a burger fool once his money ran out thanks to those upgrades.

You're right. Shank should have just taken his trust fund home with him and pouted instead like Chris Dyson did. How dare Shank put his own money on the line to keep racing so he can employ people and keep his team running? What a loser.

[seanyb505]

His carping to anyone who will listen has gotten old as of late. We get it, he's trying to run a business in a premier class. Unfortunately, what grand am and Shank had/are having trouble with is realizing that a cost capped premier class is not what brings the fans in. He notices the fans this year, though I haven't read once where he correctly attributes the purchased fan increase to the years of the alms model of racing.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by DeezPutz

You're right. Shank should have just taken his trust fund home with him and pouted instead like Chris Dyson did. How dare Shank put his own money on the line to keep racing so he can employ people and keep his team running? What a loser.

Dyson actually bought two Bentley's and went elsewhere because he didn't like the look of TUSC from a P2 standpoint.

Don't think for a second they won't jump back in with said Bentley's and win a whole boatload of GTD races when they switch to GT3.

[Maelochs]

What we see are people who have no experience racing as a business, because they raced for sop long in a subsidized, sheltered environment.

Every other team is facing the same set of conditions--Some (two-time champion Bob Stallings Racing) have had to leave the series--something ALMS fans well understand (Highcroft Racing and Adrian Fernandez Racing.)

Yeah it sucks, but the answer isn't complaining about the end result (insufficient available funds) but complaining about the causes (miserable formula leading to boring cars, bad officiating leading to artificial racing, and now, miserable BoP added to the mix.)

Michael Shank seems unable to grasp Why he can't raise funds, so he complains about having no finds.

I like the team, and while they were in Rolex, always wanted them to do better (I know they won a Rolex, but that was only because Ganassi dropped a tranny with a few hours left, while leading by a huge margin.)

I would love to see the team get it together in a more competitive, less subsidized series--but it won't wortk until TUSC management wises up and makwes some fundamental changes (IMO.)

[Speed-King]

I don't think Shank was one of the teams that were relying on subsidies to a big degree. A few years ago Kevin Doran that was complaining about subsidized teams running all pro line ups, while others had to make do with amateur drivers footing the bill.

[Maelochs]

I know Stallings was subsidized and not all-pro; Ganassi was not all-pro (though Memo Rojas should be considered so now.) I am not sure which teams were and were not subsidized or to which amounts; I have heard that SunTrust made credit easy, being sort of the series' bank.

I figure Something must have changed besides the several hundred thousand update fee--Shank didn't talk this way through all those years in Rolex, and in fact usually ran two cars.

Maybe sponsors are leery of TUSC, or maybe the team's lack or results, and now being behind P2s as well as DPs, are taking a toll on Shank's budget.

Whatever it is, it is, because he is now talking about being short of money. Maybe he is trying to get a NASCAR handout---I know Stallings got an increased stipend a couple years back by threatening to quit.

[DeezPutz]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Dyson actually bought two Bentley's and went elsewhere because he didn't like the look of TUSC from a P2 standpoint.

Don't think for a second they won't jump back in with said Bentley's and win a whole boatload of GTD races when they switch to GT3.

Dyson didn't buy a single thing. They will get curb stomped in GTD.