IMSA TUSC 2015 Entries, Schedule, and Rumors

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Gulf

Having P1 even at just the NAEC events would give tuscar some of its credibility back.

It's pure fantasy. You're basically saying to the DP/P2 teams: "you need to run a full season with us but you won't actually be allow to win any of our biggest races."

[seanyb505]

Isn't that what TUSC is currently saying to P2 teams?

If I may add to the fantasy - You're basically saying to the DP/P2 teams: "you need to run a full season with us but you won't actually be allow to win any of our biggest races.....because you're not the fastest class, and we don't just give wins to cars that don't deserve it."

[David Land]

Originally Posted by Simmi

It's pure fantasy. You're basically saying to the DP/P2 teams: "you need to run a full season with us but you won't actually be allow to win any of our biggest races."

So wins in GTLM are meaningless because they aren't for overall?

Also there will be hardly any DP/P2 teams left next year if the rumors are to be believed. Might as well open it up.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Simmi

It's pure fantasy. You're basically saying to the DP/P2 teams: "you need to run a full season with us but you won't actually be allow to win any of our biggest races."

Which is exactly what happened when Audi and Pug etc only showed up for Sebring and PLM, and it was widely accepted. And other P1 cars couldn't even get class wins in that time, unlike would be the case with DP/P2 now if it went ahead

Also, in 2010 when there was a combined class for P1 and P2, Sebring and PLM were still the only events where P2 wasn't allowed to go for overall win even in theory

And just as ILMC run integrated witg the regional series they stole the spotlight

[Simmi]

All true but none of that is relevant any more. The goalposts have moved.

[Maelochs]

What would TUSC P1 have looked like in 2014? ALMS P1 in 2012 and 2013. That is why TUSC (wisely) didn't try to have a P1 class.

Yes, I would rather have two P1s (actually racing) than ten DPs but that was never the choice. The real choice was one P1 (M Milk) and one also-ran (Dyson) and on occasion another also-ran, (the Dyson rent-a-ride) which often couldn't even beat the PCs.

Basically, Muscle Milk would have stolen the show at every event while basically running unopposed, while the DP and P2 teams would always get the second interviews, less TV coverage, less RoI for their sponsors.

I am sorry but that is a Crappy business model. That is the kind of management which left ALMS so desperate it sold out to NASCAR. it is an "Almost everybosy loses" paradigm, and because of that kind of thinking, every single ALMS fan and P1/P2 team Did lose.

Yes, right now TUSC is basically telling P2 teams "you can't win" but P2 teams didn't know that at the start of the season--and likely wouldn't have signed on if they had. See how well it is working? And just wait until next year ...

And That is the model you suggest?

P1 fans can talk about Rebellion (which is currently completely absorbed just trying to find reliability and pace with its R-One in WEC and wouldn't be in TUSC even if it had a P1 class) and Porsche (so ... the rumor has been around for a long time ... that makes it more true?)

Audi might have run Daytona or Sebring ... we won't ever know. Toyota, with its smaller budget, almost certainly not. Which means for nine of eleven races, it would be Muscle Milk on the top step of the podium, Dyson second and several laps down, and/ or whichever P2/DP team or teams got lucky enough to get a tiny bit of airtime.

Do GTLM wins not matter? Totally different situation, because those are essentially factory teams, and are less desperate for TV time to give sponsors RoI.

Also, the GTLM winner is the GT winner, not the second-class GT winner. P2/DP would essentially be the GTD to P1's GTLM--less airtime, because they are the P-class also-rans. GTLM is the premier GT class, and gets better treatment than PC---and better treatment than DP/P2 would likely get if there was a P1 class.

For a P2 team ... well, in ALMS, Adrian Fernandez won the P2 title and had to dissolve the team the next year because he couldn't find a sponsor. It wouldn't work in TUSC either; the second class doesn't get as much coverage.

I'd love--Love--to see even four reliable, competitive P1 cars in TUSC. That way there would generally be at least three in the fight in every race. I'd Love that.

Thing is, that hasn't happened in North American racing in five years, and despite all the wishes and rumors I see no actual signs that it might have happened this year.

Fans might be satisfied with a single P1 car storming around the track far ahead of the field, but the Teams have to make a living--something else ALMS forgot, which is why we are where we are.

Aren't we supposed to have learned from the failures of the past?

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Simmi

All true but none of that is relevant any more. The goalposts have moved.

To keep domestic tube framers and co happy they could keep Daytona safely in full NASCAR land, and instead move NAEC to Sebring-Glen-PLM only and have P1 there. Or, as I've suggested before, make Petit LMP1's only appearance in order to restore some of event's title back and more back to it's root. Then you could move Laguna or whatever back to being final race so that the regular series championship titles could be decided there in full spotlight

[David Land]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Aren't we supposed to have learned from the failures of the past?

IMSA management has not. Otherwise they would have made P2 the top class.

[Dodge_Swinger]

I may be the only person who thinks this way, but I never looked at the ALMS in terms of a championship. I don't look at the WEC, TUSC or ELMS in that way, either. I look at the series' as several individual races run under the same rules. Since the teams have multiple drivers, many of which race in other series, there are always conflicts where certain drivers aren't always racing in each round. Because of this and other aspects, it doesn't bother me if Audi, Pug, Porsche, etc come to only Sebring or Petit. If they win, it doesn't affect the championship. The full-time participants still get points and still compete for "the Cup". As I said, I've never paid much attention to the various seasonal championships because the nature of endurance sports car teams really doesn't lend itself to cheering for a overall championship win to me.

I realize that teams want to win races, but I think that privateer teams may actually benefit sponsorship-wise from participation by the big factory teams. I'm not saying that every TUSC race would be live on network TV if Porsche, Toyota, Audi, etc raced in the series, but I'm pretty certain that having those cars present would go a long way in selling commercials, which might in turn might improve the lackluster coverage we have now. So what if the LMP1 giants come over for cherry picked races and dominate? I would argue that if the LMP1 grid showed up at Petit, it would result in MORE, not less exposure for the privateer stalwarts in TUSC. They still compete for a championship. There would certainly be more "eyes" watching whether in person, on the web or on TV. I don't think that teams like Rebellion are frustrated by the fact that they have little to no chance of winning WEC races overall. They like to compete and their sponsors get exposure on a world stage.

I think this is another case of the NASCAR mentality that thinks sports car fans are fans in the same way Sprint Cup fans are. It may not be representative of the overall fan base, but many of the people that post here share my opinion, which is the enjoyment of high-tech exotic and exciting cars being driven hard on a track. I don't get too excited about driver line ups and I honestly couldn't tell you who's in the lead in the various WEC/TUSC/ELMS championships because that's not why I'm drawn to endurance racing.

[Danske]

Someone (on the Internet, so I'm just saying someone said) did say that IMSA floated the idea of P1 at the NAEC rounds, but all the P1 factory teams wouldn't commit to that, so it was basically canceled because of lack of interest.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Yes, right now TUSC is basically telling P2 teams "you can't win" but P2 teams didn't know that at the start of the season--and likely wouldn't have signed on if they had. See how well it is working? And just wait until next year ...

Most of us already suspected last year that the Grand-Am machinery was gonna be favoured. I think P2 teams were relying on hope rather than realistic expectations.

P1 fans can talk about Rebellion (which is currently completely absorbed just trying to find reliability and pace with its R-One in WEC and wouldn't be in TUSC even if it had a P1 class)

Speculation. For a team that raced at PLM and Fuji during the same weekend last year you cannot say something like that.

and Porsche (so ... the rumor has been around for a long time ... that makes it more true?)

Or less true?

Audi might have run Daytona or Sebring ... we won't ever know. Toyota, with its smaller budget, almost certainly not. Which means for nine of eleven races, it would be Muscle Milk on the top step of the podium, Dyson second and several laps down, and/ or whichever P2/DP team or teams got lucky enough to get a tiny bit of airtime.

We're not (all) talking of full season P1 entries but NAEC.

I agree that you wouldn't have seen shoestring Toyota anywhere but Audi and Porsche very likely at least next year, maybe Nissan too.

Also, the GTLM winner is the GT winner, not the second-class GT winner. P2/DP would essentially be the GTD to P1's GTLM--less airtime, because they are the P-class also-rans. GTLM is the premier GT class, and gets better treatment than PC---and better treatment than DP/P2 would likely get if there was a P1 class.

For a P2 team ... well, in ALMS, Adrian Fernandez won the P2 title and had to dissolve the team the next year because he couldn't find a sponsor. It wouldn't work in TUSC either; the second class doesn't get as much coverage.

As you've said, ALMS model was different to what we have now. You seriously expect Corvette branded prototypes and Ford Ecoboosts not to get same kind of air time in FOX broadcasts if they weren't the headliner class?

Fans might be satisfied with a single P1 car storming around the track far ahead of the field, but the Teams have to make a living--something else ALMS forgot, which is why we are where we are.

I don't think that's why we are where we are, there are other reasons. In the early 2000's there were plenty races too when it was just Audi circulating laps and laps and laps ahead of anyone else and no one cried.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Swinger

I may be the only person who thinks this way, but I never looked at the ALMS in terms of a championship. I don't look at the WEC, TUSC or ELMS in that way, either. I look at the series' as several individual races run under the same rules. Since the teams have multiple drivers, many of which race in other series, there are always conflicts where certain drivers aren't always racing in each round. Because of this and other aspects, it doesn't bother me if Audi, Pug, Porsche, etc come to only Sebring or Petit. If they win, it doesn't affect the championship. The full-time participants still get points and still compete for "the Cup". As I said, I've never paid much attention to the various seasonal championships because the nature of endurance sports car teams really doesn't lend itself to cheering for a overall championship win to me.

I realize that teams want to win races, but I think that privateer teams may actually benefit sponsorship-wise from participation by the big factory teams. I'm not saying that every TUSC race would be live on network TV if Porsche, Toyota, Audi, etc raced in the series, but I'm pretty certain that having those cars present would go a long way in selling commercials, which might in turn might improve the lackluster coverage we have now. So what if the LMP1 giants come over for cherry picked races and dominate? I would argue that if the LMP1 grid showed up at Petit, it would result in MORE, not less exposure for the privateer stalwarts in TUSC. They still compete for a championship. There would certainly be more "eyes" watching whether in person, on the web or on TV. I don't think that teams like Rebellion are frustrated by the fact that they have little to no chance of winning WEC races overall. They like to compete and their sponsors get exposure on a world stage.

I think this is another case of the NASCAR mentality that thinks sports car fans are fans in the same way Sprint Cup fans are. It may not be representative of the overall fan base, but many of the people that post here share my opinion, which is the enjoyment of high-tech exotic and exciting cars being driven hard on a track. I don't get too excited about driver line ups and I honestly couldn't tell you who's in the lead in the various WEC/TUSC/ELMS championships because that's not why I'm drawn to endurance racing.

This is a very good post and in line to what I said a couple of weeks ago about 6 hour standardized races in WEC and how they will be remembered in years time. The increased explosure that the factories and such bring is a huge plus too, which is very much what happened with the ILMC integrations as well (both LMS and ALMS). Very much agree.

[Maelochs]

"In the early 2000's there were plenty races too when it was just Audi circulating laps and laps and laps ahead of anyone else and no one cried."

Come dude, let's keep it real. Audi wasn't the Only P1, it was just the fastest, and it got beat now and then. if it had been Only Audi with no P1 or P2 cars in its class (back when a P2 could occasionally win overall) there would have been crying---when Audi pulled out to race somewhere it had competition.

We can probably go back on this very site and see a lot of complaints about Muscle Milk losing eight laps to Dyson at Lime Rock and waltzing back to take the win, or losing four laps at Road America and only losing buy thousandths of a second---lots of complaints about how Dyson was totally uncompetitive and Muscle Milk was in a one-car class. Lots of complaints from ALMS fans. We were both there, we both know this.

In any case ... P1 is Not happening in TUSC for the rest of this season or the next two. Simply that. Fantasies are fine, and I can certainly come up with better P1 fantasies than a few privateers at NAEC rounds, but the reality is, ALMS couldn't make P1 work and right now at least, TUSC would find it even harder--and won't even try.

Two teams---and one totally uncompetitive. That was P1 in ALMS for the last two seasons. And a lot of people who hated it then claim they would love it now. Too bad they didn't love it then, I guess.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

"In the early 2000's there were plenty races too when it was just Audi circulating laps and laps and laps ahead of anyone else and no one cried."

Come dude, let's keep it real. Audi wasn't the Only P1, it was just the fastest, and it got beat now and then. if it had been Only Audi with no P1 or P2 cars in its class (back when a P2 could occasionally win overall) there would have been crying---when Audi pulled out to race somewhere it had competition.

C'mon yourself, at Sebring or PLM or any of the big races Audi was never the "only car" in it's class. For example at Sebring ten years ago the Dallara/MG-Lola/Riley&Scott competition against R8s wasn't particularly tougher than it was last year against two Rebellions and the ALMS gang. Iin fact in the years without other manufacturers or P2-semiworks teams the lap gaps were many times even bigger.

[Maelochs]

The fact that you can name several other P1 cars in those races versus the last two years of ALMS when there were only two is exactly the point I am making--and which you just made for me. Thanks.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

The fact that you can name several other P1 cars in those races versus the last two years of ALMS when there were only two is exactly the point I am making--and which you just made for me. Thanks.

? Didn't just feel to mention them by name

In Sebrings without factory P1 or somewhat serious 675/P2 opposition against Audi equipped teams

2013
Rebellion
Rebellion
Dyson
Pickett
(DW)

2012
Rebellion
Rebellion
Pescarolo
Oak
JRM
Strakka
Dyson
Pickett

2006
Dyson
Dyson
Highcroft
Autocon

2005
Dyson
Dyson
Rollcentre
Autocon

2004
Dyson
Dyson
Rollcentre
Autocon
Intersport
Intersport
Larbre/Panoz
Citgo/Taurus
(Elite)

2001
Dyson
Intersport
Pescarolo
Panoz
Panoz

[Coach Ep]

I'm not getting it and it has nothing - or very, very little to do with next year.

Now, if you wanna start an ALMS/IMSA all-time history thread on the other hand...

[Dodge_Swinger]

Is it better sponsorship-wise to invest in a winning team in a series no one watches or to invest in a mid or bottom level team in a series that's relevant on a world stage?

In F1, I don't think Minardi ever seriously thought they'd win a race, much less the championship, but they were racing for many seasons. What's the purpose of running GTLM or P2 in WEC? It's certainly not about overall wins. I would even include Rebellion in this.

I think it's for exposure, however limited, on a world stage for the most part, coupled with a healthy love of the sport.

I also wonder what changed so radically from the early 2000s to now? Panoz, while technically a factory team, had a fraction of the budget of the Audi and BMW factory efforts, yet they won races and championships. I think Dr. Panoz said one year that the team's budget was under 10 million for a two car effort compared to 50 million spent by Audi, yet Panoz beat Audi at the DC GP that year.

[Dodge_Swinger]

I realize that the economy is still having an effect on teams overall, but it seems there used to be a lot less emphasis on "everybody has to have a chance to win, or......" by both the organizers and the teams. Teams like Autocon, Intersport, or Raffanelli probably knew they had little chance of beating Panoz, much less Audi, yet they entered cars on a regular basis. There has always been a significant budget gap between the top teams and the bottom of the grid. There certainly wasn't as much talk about not being able to win overall by either teams or the sanctioning bodies, yet the entry lists were much healthier. The first sports car race I attended (Camel GT, Road Atlanta 1981) only had a couple of 935s fighting it out for the win, but there were a couple of BMW M1s, a Datsun 280ZX and a few others in the top class. As far as can remember, everything non-935 got lapped multiple times and these teams probably all knew they were going to get soundly beaten, but there they were. Pretty much every sports car race I attended since that time had the same dynamic. I don't know what's changed, at least in America. Maybe it's the perception that NASCAR and only NASCAR is racing or maybe it's fallout from efforts to uplift everyone's self-esteem (everyone's a winner). All I know is that lack of budget, relative to the top tier teams or the likely hood of getting stomped by factory teams or even getting stomped by ANOTHER factory team didn't seem to deter sports car entrants in the not so distant past.

[Deleted]

"Everybody needs to be able to win" is not only limited to North America

LMP2 pro-am
LMP1-L
LMGTE-AM
Silver Cup GT3
Pro-Am GT3
Gentleman GT3 Trophy
GTC-AM

etc

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Swinger

(...) All I know is that lack of budget, relative to the top tier teams or the likely hood of getting stomped by factory teams or even getting stomped by ANOTHER factory team didn't seem to deter sports car entrants in the not so distant past.

That's true, but look at how sportscars fans nowadays stomp teams like the 2011 Dyson or the 2012 Dyson.
Or even the occasional 2014 ESM driver (just scroll up, surprised there's no death wishes for Sharp or Dyson).

Seems some marketing guy came by and read these forums and told the owners all they generate is hate.
And the latter wisened up.

[Rcz]

Too bad the DPs just can't be open up.

They have like 2 more years after this one until there done right?

GM will still be there if their looks like a Vette fine right?

The just restrict the nose of the car but free everything else up. Unrestricted aero except for the nose. Sides, top, back, the underneath. Make those free. Go crazy until the end. Remember the P1 Vette?

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by Chiana

"Everybody needs to be able to win" is not only limited to North America

LMP2 pro-am
LMP1-L
LMGTE-AM
Silver Cup GT3
Pro-Am GT3
Gentleman GT3 Trophy
GTC-AM

etc

I agree with you, particularly when looking at the classes you've listed above.

However, I still wonder how we got to this situation, which definitely affects the entry list in TUSC. I was looking at the results of the 2000 Petit Le Mans ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Petit_Le_Mans ). There were 14 LMPs entered, all of which were prepared to the same set of rules, which in theory would make any of the 14 a possible winner overall. Of those cars, does anyone think that Konrad Motorsport, Team Rafanelli or Intersport thought they had a reasonable chance of making the podium, much less winning overall? Yet, they entered cars. Two of those teams came over from Europe.

At the top end of the field, the #1 Panoz of Brabham and Magnussen came in third. I was at that race and I remember them pushing the #78 Audi for second place. Panoz had a budget that was probably 15 to 20 percent of Audi, yet they got a podium, beating out factory efforts from BMW and Cadillac. Panoz not only entered cars using far less money than Audi, yet they were genuinely competitive. How were they able to do that, especially considering they had an unconventional car to work with, along with a small budget?

How is it that we've come to the point that it's assumed to be impossible to be competitive with the likes of Audi, Porsche or Toyota unless you spend the same amount of money?

TUSC operates under a rule set that PRIDES itself on being egalitarian and cost-contained, yet we have only 10 protos entered at COTA and I doubt there will be few, if any additional entries at Petit this year. We won't know for sure until next year, but it's looking a bit likely that we'll see an even smaller proto grid next year. I would also argue that the Petit grid in 2015 won't be nearly as interesting as the grid in 2000.

I'm not sure that the argument that high-dollar factory efforts automatically drive away privateers or factory efforts with much smaller budgets is always true. I also not convinced that you have to spend Audi money to compete with Audi. And I don't understand how the sport has gotten to the point where if a team isn't practically guaranteed a chance to win, they don't want to participate. This is a significant change from the recent past. Nobody is willing to be Minardi anymore, but I would argue that way of thinking has resulted in a TUSC proto grid composed of a bunch of Minardis.

[TF110]

Toyota is an example of low budget factory team winning. Of course theyre using tmg which is imo the best current motorsport facilities, but they spend maybe half of Audi. I think that was suppose to be if Audi have $100million per year. But theres a good example of money spent wisely. Panoz (in the past) as well. I think the decision to drop lmp1 was for one obvious reason, new management didnt want their guys (dp owners) losing. P2's could be slowed enough, P1 couldn't. But this has nothing to do with 2015, sorry.

[Rodger Davies]

I think that's the more telling part. When we're considering Toyota as a 'low budget' team, that's a big difference to the Rafanellis and Intersports of the world and the reason they can't be expected to still be around. If Toyota are 'low budget', then those guys were 'minuscule' or 'non-existent' budget.

I agree that the ',everyone must be able to win' attitude towards racing these days is rubbish, but it is what it is.