"Let's talk tyres...."

Knowlesy · 24 Jul 2003, 13:16 (Ref:670284)

Jacques Villeneuve was whinging all last weekend about how Ferrari were getting the latest tyres from Bridgestone and BAR had to make do with the old spec.

Bridgestone have also been outdone rather by Michelin this year and this got me thinking - who the hell will remain with Brigestone Tyre Company next year?

My feeling is that everyone will switch to Michelin and Ferrari will be the only Bridgey team.

Would this affect Bridgestones image? Surely running with one team out of twenty looks quite bad? I predict the dissapearance of them soon.......

Oh, and what ever happened to Goodyear? There was talk of them coming back in 2005. Doesn't look that way......

spearce · 24 Jul 2003, 13:37 (Ref:670296)

The problem is B/stone only have 1 top team, Mich have 3 (Will, Mac and Ren). The B's can't be too far off, win, pole and FL at the w/e, and a BAR in the points from the back of the grid. If it rains they'd all want them !

shiny side up! · 24 Jul 2003, 14:12 (Ref:670326)

I don't think the Bstones are absolutely horrible... Michelin has gotten the best of them a few times, but not enough for all the Bstone teams to abondon ship... Plus, as spearce says, if it rains I would sure rather be on the Bridgestones...

neilap · 24 Jul 2003, 15:51 (Ref:670426)

One of the reasons Michelin has three top teams is the way BS treats its other teams. I have read too many strange things about what goes on with BS, Ferrari and the others. I've read that BAR had to race the spec tires they used in the first race. Who knows whats true. One things for certain, everyone on Michelins seem to stand a chance of gaining points during the races while only BAR (sometimes) seem to be able to get anywhere on the tires. This of ofcourse not taking Ferrari into account.

If I was incharge at BAR I would definately try to make a shift to a team that would give me as close to equal treatment as possible.

Glen · 24 Jul 2003, 16:05 (Ref:670435)

You've got to feel sorry for Sauber too - they can't jump to Michelin because Michelin would be very worried about sharing tyre data with a Ferrari partner. In the past (can't remember the individuals involved) we've had the situation where a driver has been prevented from testing with a team because the team uses the other tyre.

On the situation as a whole: surely it just goes in cycles? Next year it could be all the other way around.

ralf fan · 24 Jul 2003, 17:53 (Ref:670493)

There are some rumours that Goodyear might make a comeback. Do any of think Ferrari might jump to Goodyear tyres if they struggle with BS's?

**Bononi** · 24 Jul 2003, 18:00 (Ref:670496)

Just to put some fire, I think Pirelli should come back too...

neilap · 24 Jul 2003, 18:11 (Ref:670501)

Anothere tire company would be a blessing. I would like to see that. Most of the BS runners I feel, would jump ship. There would be Ferrari and Sauber left with them. Its not that their tires are that bad. BS is behind now but I feel they will recover. The problem is that Ferrari will get the good stuff first. BAR was fast in Silverstone only because of the the improved car. Its new motor, aero and chassis improvements made up most of its pace. The best tires were saves for Ferrari.

paulzinho · 24 Jul 2003, 19:54 (Ref:670550)

Weren't Pirelli looking into the possibilty of returning?

esorniloc · 24 Jul 2003, 20:19 (Ref:670561)

Would Michelin be able to handle another 3 teams? The rules say that a tyre supplier has to be able to supply 60% of the grid when there are 2 manufacturers in F1.

So if Michelin had a 6th team it could then regect all others and Bridgestone would have to supply them.

It would be great if Goodyear returned.

cos · 24 Jul 2003, 20:38 (Ref:670569)

Quote:

You've got to feel sorry for Sauber too - they can't jump to Michelin because Michelin would be very worried about sharing tyre data with a Ferrari partner.

It happened with Prost in 2001 - they used Ferrari engines but were on Michelins.

Quote:

In the past (can't remember the individuals involved) we've had the situation where a driver has been prevented from testing with a team because the team uses the other tyre.

It can't be that much of an issue - Wilson's going from Bridgestone to Michelin, last year, Alesi and Frentzen both switched tyre companies in 2001. Anyway, I'm pretty convinced that the team with all it's technology can tell more about the tyres than the drivers could.

Knowlesy · 24 Jul 2003, 20:48 (Ref:670581)

I doubt that drivers know much about compound structures! Come on, they are supposed to be 'thick'!

(that was a joke, don't jump on me!!!)

The problem for the BS runners isn't just the delay compared with Ferraris rubber, it's that the tyres are tailor made for the Ferraris. They don't suit other cars, quite simply.

Snrub · 25 Jul 2003, 00:41 (Ref:670687)

It would seem that it would be benificial to have more cars running on your tires from both a testing data and marketing standpoint. As has been said, it would look hurt Bridgestone if they supplied only one team, even if the team won the WDC.

**Spudgun** · 25 Jul 2003, 06:57 (Ref:670851)

The problem with Bridgestone is that they appear to be only really working with one team i.e. Ferrari. They only seem to be using data from Ferrari and giving them the latest spec tyres whereas the other Bridgestone teams are still using older spec tyres.

At Silverstone the Ferraris were using a new wider front tyre. You could visibly see the difference by comparing the Ferrari and the BAR.

I think Bridgestone are shooting themselves in the foot from a testing AND marketing point of view. From the testing aspect they are losing valuable data that they could get from the other teams. From a marketing point of view, other than Ferrari, most of their cars are running well down the order (in the dry at least).

Don't get me wrong, some of the teams do 'a bit' of tyre testing, but I don't think it's nearly enough. If this trend continues, I can see more teams making the switch to Michelin.

**Bononi** · 25 Jul 2003, 11:20 (Ref:671001)

Isn't Michelin doing the same with Williams and McLaren ? :confused:

Glen · 25 Jul 2003, 11:30 (Ref:671011)

Not really - Renault are doing a lot of stuff with them also, including research on OPT. Also, Renault are reported to be getting valuable tyre data in their Friday am test session - depending on whether you believe such stories, they are apparently able to tailor-make tyres in a mobile facility in time for Saturday!

Part of this ontrast is just that more of the Michelin teams are better teams - Williams and McLaren obviously are A-list teams with vast development programmes and cutting-edge engineering, but Renault are virtually in that class too and have a lot of innovative thinking in their factory. Then you've also got Toyota trying very hard and spending buckets of money, and Jaguar are a much improved team too. Compare that with BAR (improved but still struggling, and with relatively poor integrity and experience in their engineering), Sauber (struggling a little for money, attention divided because they still haven't got their wind tunnel) and Jordan and Minardi ('nuff said - no money). The likes of BARcan complain all they like, but if they haven't got the kind of adventurous approach that Renault, for example, display they will not be able to define parameters for Bridgestone to build tyres to, and will only be left with making do with Ferrari tyres.

Knowlesy · 25 Jul 2003, 11:35 (Ref:671015)

So the situation for BAR would be more-or-less the same at Michelin?
I don't think so. Yes, Michelin do favour their better teams slightly, but they still look after their worse teams just as well.
Bridgestone concentrate on the red cars!

**Spudgun** · 25 Jul 2003, 12:04 (Ref:671037)

But the thing to remember is, the reason that Michelin seems to have more of the better teams is that they have switched because of the situation with Bridgestone and Ferrari.

McLaren switched at the end of 2001 because Bridgestone were concentrating development on Ferrari which were producing tyres that didn't suit the Macs.

Michelin have been working with more of their teams which now seems to be beginning to pay off.

neilap · 25 Jul 2003, 13:06 (Ref:671073)

Quote:

Originally posted by Glen
The likes of BARcan complain all they like, but if they haven't got the kind of adventurous approach that Renault, for example, display they will not be able to define parameters for Bridgestone to build tyres to, and will only be left with making do with Ferrari tyres.

How do you know how good the car really is when the tires are not made for their chassis? If BAR are using the older tires then it means all of the more aggressive compounds are going to Ferrari after BS saw they were falling behind.

Honda went adventurous with their motor. Look what it did for them! GW did not claim to be breaking new ground with the 005. He just wanted to build a good car. The car is good. The biggest problem was the Xtrac gearbox, which, to my understanding, has been switched for a Honda unit.

Did anyone notice both cars finished?

I feel that if the BAR was on Michelins they would be a lot closer to Renault at this point in the season!

BS and Ferrari are a bunch of clowns. This would never happen in any other sport. Its sad!! I Japanese company owned by Italians, sad. Two other Japanese makers are there and neither benefit from them. I dont think Goodyear would give Renault any kind of prefference over Jag (or Ford).

JR Ewing · 25 Jul 2003, 13:20 (Ref:671085)

Quote:

Originally posted by paulzinho
Weren't Pirelli looking into the possibilty of returning?

Michelin & Pirelli are the same company...

Knowlesy · 25 Jul 2003, 14:35 (Ref:671141)

Also, Michelin delve deeper into trying to personalise their tyres for its cars. They helped make a suspension system with renault to maximise the contact patch and they are working with McLaren and Williams. They give all their teams the choice of this extra help, rather than just giving it to Williams or McLaren.

Mr V · 25 Jul 2003, 15:13 (Ref:671174)

Quote:

Originally posted by Spudgun

I think Bridgestone are shooting themselves in the foot from a testing AND marketing point of view. From the testing aspect they are losing valuable data that they could get from the other teams. From a marketing point of view, other than Ferrari, most of their cars are running well down the order (in the dry at least).

Quote:

Originally posted by Bononi
Isn't Michelin doing the same with Williams and McLaren ? :confused:

I don't think they are. Compare the last 6 races and Michelin come out on top in all aspects....

of a possible 48 top 8 grid positions

Bridgestone 14 (29%) Michelin 34 (71%)

of a possible 48 top 8 points scoring positions

Bridgestone 16 (32%) Michelin 32 (68%)

of a possible 234 points scored

Bridgestone 79 (34%) Michelin 155 (66%)

Bearing in mind that Michael and Rubens qualified and finished in the top 8 in all 6 races, that means that only 2 other Bridgestone runners have qualified in the top 8 and 4 other Bridgestone runners finished in a points scoring position.

Knowlesy · 25 Jul 2003, 15:18 (Ref:671181)

A striking comparison there.
Thanks V!

Yoong Montoya · 28 Jul 2003, 22:19 (Ref:673742)

Quote:

Originally posted by Glen
You've got to feel sorry for Sauber too - they can't jump to Michelin because Michelin would be very worried about sharing tyre data with a Ferrari partner.

Why not? Prost had Ferrari engines in 2001 but had Michelin tyres.

avsfan733 · 28 Jul 2003, 23:49 (Ref:673780)

I think it is a different situation now with Sauber than a few years back with Prost. That was before Mclaren switched and before Williams was a threat

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