|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
22 Jun 2017, 08:11 (Ref:3745969) | #5651 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,827
|
Then why the rumors of him being associated with HPD's DPI program, unless him being with Penske has anything to do with it?
|
||
|
22 Jun 2017, 08:13 (Ref:3745970) | #5652 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,920
|
Quote:
ford in WEC/IMSA chevy in nascar honda in indy they just need to buy a pair of viper gt3 |
||
|
22 Jun 2017, 08:31 (Ref:3745972) | #5653 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,932
|
Why is driving a DP and a Corvette a couple of years ago proof he isn't involved in the Penske Honda DPi?
|
|
|
22 Jun 2017, 11:18 (Ref:3746004) | #5654 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 596
|
Quote:
Anyway, coming back to Toyota, the fact that they'd be the only one to benefit from a third car shows that they should've always brought an additional car, but at the same time shows their dependency on it. This dependency shows a weakness that Porsche/Audi haven't had. |
||
__________________
"Every Le Mans, the car which wins Le Mans is the best car." - Tom Kristensen |
22 Jun 2017, 11:47 (Ref:3746009) | #5655 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,299
|
I believe it was said as evidence he is not an HPD driver, could still be with that program but does not seem like he is a contracted HPD driver on loan to Penske, but rather a Penske driver who is allowed to race outside of his main contract as well. Penske is no fool and only a fool would not want to bring him or Derani into their team in a P2 based car. Is Derani a Ford driver or just in the GTE car?
|
|
|
22 Jun 2017, 12:39 (Ref:3746026) | #5656 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 906
|
Quote:
|
||
__________________
. . . but I'm not a traditionalist so maybe my opinion doesn't count! -TF110 |
22 Jun 2017, 13:30 (Ref:3746052) | #5657 | |
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 363
|
||
|
22 Jun 2017, 17:27 (Ref:3746109) | #5658 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,389
|
I think the #8 would have won if they didn't do the precautionary battery change. Either way, Toyota are kicking themselves and crunching the numbers as we speak. I look forward to the rest of the year. The #8 is probably going to receive preferential treatment unless the #7 car is continuously dominant and they can do 1-2's every race. It's only logical for the wdc.
|
|
|
22 Jun 2017, 18:08 (Ref:3746119) | #5659 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 596
|
Apology accepted:
https://www.racingbytmg.com/toyota-g...mans-24-hours/ |
|
__________________
"Every Le Mans, the car which wins Le Mans is the best car." - Tom Kristensen |
22 Jun 2017, 18:46 (Ref:3746128) | #5660 | |||
Team Crouton
20KPINAL
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 39,564
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
44 days... |
2 Jul 2017, 14:44 (Ref:3748308) | #5661 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 771
|
I though some more about the clutch issue and i have a theory.
We know that Toyota use only 6 gears instead of 7 like Porsche do. And we also know that they use EV power the car up to the pit limiter speed and then they bump start the engine. I think that they use another advantage of the EV start, and that is the use of a long 1st gear. Now everyone who has driven a manual car even knows how short the 1st gear is. You use only to get going and you have to immediately shift into 2nd once you get going. The reason for that is to save the clutch. The shorter the first gear the sooner the engine will have enough rpm to be able to drive the car and not stall and that means that you need to slip in less. If you have watched motorsports from different categories (bike excluded) you may know that in most cases the 1st is only a starting and a pit lane gear, and once the car is at speed on the track it never gets used as it's too short and you are grip bound anyway at that speed so the short gear will do nothing for you in terms of speed. From the telemetry and the counting the shifts by sound i can make out that the Toyota was using 1st gear in Mulssane, Arnage corners and at the ford chicane. For other prototypes this is basically a 2nd gear situation. So in effect Toyota's first gear is roughly equivalent to Porshe's 2nd. The advantage is obvious you have a lighter gearbox, that also takes less space and will have very slightly reduced frictional losses if all else is equal. What if for whatever reason the car could not start on EV mode and had to do it the conventional way with slipping the clutch. Now a tall first gear alone should not be enough to break the car after just one or two starts, but as we know everything is made to such fine margins the clutch might have not been designed to slip start that car. |
|
|
3 Jul 2017, 00:58 (Ref:3748554) | #5662 | |||
Racer
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 152
|
Quote:
Do you think it would have made a difference if they brought Seb in sooner? He knew right away something broke but they kept him out at speed. Did keeping him out cause more damage? He sounded furious. |
|||
|
3 Jul 2017, 15:26 (Ref:3748640) | #5663 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 363
|
Quote:
I think the Audis used 1st gear at Mulsanne corner and Arnage. In F1 it's always been used since they have been showing telemetry, for both corners and accelerating from a start. For regular road cars I think it depends what you are trying to do, but I don't think 1st should be dropped (half clutch and immediately 2nd). I use 1st to accelerate, both a gentle a start with a short half-clutch, or a more aggressive launch. What's the point of shifting at at 4-5k revs at every other gear, but shifting out of 1st when under 2.5k (unless you are trying to avoid the 1st to 2nd shift which is trickier to get right when revs are higher). Keeping the car in 1st can also be great for traffic, depending on how long your 1st gear is. But this is road cars. I think it's obvious the Toyota was not made to start from a standstill using the clutch. And maybe their 1st was long, I don't know. But again, Audi were using 1st for the slow corners, and their car always started with the clutch. |
||
|
3 Jul 2017, 17:53 (Ref:3748655) | #5664 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,827
|
Audi always used to use second for Muslanne and Arnage with the R8, R10, and R15. But then again, the R8 never used traction control and the R10 and R15 had huge gobs of torque. I think that losing a couple hundred lbs/ft of torque and an effective ASR system allowed Audi to use 1st gear in the R18.
Porsche usually don't use first because of having a 7 speed gearbox, and they also shift into top a lot earlier than Audi did with any R18 variant (Toyota also went into 6th earlier than the Audis recently were known to do), and both have a shift pattern from 2nd (3rd for Porsche) to top similar to what the R8 had. IMO, it seems that the deal with the Toyota was either a design flaw or something they didn't think would happen. I know that one can't plan for everything, but IMO the clutch deal seems like a bit of an oversight. |
||
|
4 Jul 2017, 04:26 (Ref:3748782) | #5665 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 771
|
Audi used a diesel engine which has a lot more torque near idle RPM so they could get away with a long 1st gear, and not have to slip the clutch too much to get going.
|
|
|
4 Jul 2017, 13:26 (Ref:3748889) | #5666 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 612
|
That's not logical, because diesel engine tops out sooner than petrol engine and must have even taller gearing.
Let's just say both R18 and TS050 shift to 2nd at 100 kph (from onboard telemetry) - R18 has ~4.500 rpm at 100 kph, that means 450 rpm at 10 kph - TS-050 has ~7.000 rpm at 100 kph, that means 700 rpm at 10 kph My take on the clutch issue is that they were just saving too much weight on the clutch, thinking it's so rarely used for starting. |
|
|
4 Jul 2017, 13:58 (Ref:3748895) | #5667 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,755
|
Quote:
The only issue here is the decision makers who allowed this to become an design target. They will no doubt learn from it and move on. |
||
|
4 Jul 2017, 16:49 (Ref:3748919) | #5668 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 771
|
Quote:
|
||
|
5 Jul 2017, 03:38 (Ref:3749008) | #5669 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,389
|
Why should it be designed any different? They need another fail safe if anything.
|
|
|
5 Jul 2017, 06:33 (Ref:3749021) | #5670 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,269
|
Sidenote for next weekend's racing: saw a report on Twitter that Buemi might do the first FE race in New York and then jump on a red-eye flight to Germany to take part in the WEC race. Surely he'd need a dispensation from the FIA and the stewards at both events to jump in the Toyota on Sunday with zero track time at the Nurburgring on the race weekend?
|
||
__________________
When in doubt? C4. |
5 Jul 2017, 06:38 (Ref:3749022) | #5671 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 906
|
Quote:
|
||
__________________
. . . but I'm not a traditionalist so maybe my opinion doesn't count! -TF110 |
5 Jul 2017, 07:16 (Ref:3749026) | #5672 | |
Racer
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 199
|
Don’t know why Toyota doesn’t let him go for the whole weekend.
It is a 6 hours race and many times the cars started with 2 drivers, even Toyota in Spa with Conway + Kobayashi this year. Is there some regulation for it ? Maybe force majeure could be used, he leads the championship in FE, right ? Buemi himself said that flying + stress did not help him to perform well in either series when he had to do both the same weekend. |
|
|
5 Jul 2017, 07:18 (Ref:3749027) | #5673 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,269
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
When in doubt? C4. |
5 Jul 2017, 07:31 (Ref:3749030) | #5674 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,389
|
Pretty sure that winning the drivers title in the wec trumps the one in formula e. That's how I read from the drivers at least. They don't want to miss either but if they were to miss one, it'd be f-e. Let's see if Buemi does both!
|
|
|
5 Jul 2017, 07:39 (Ref:3749031) | #5675 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 906
|
Victor's on the money. The TGR contracts state that in the event of a conflict, the LMP1 program takes primacy.
Although it isn't very good PR for Toyota to cause all this ruckus when the other double duty drivers are going to FE, I suspect. |
|
__________________
. . . but I'm not a traditionalist so maybe my opinion doesn't count! -TF110 |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Audi LMP1 Discussion | gwyllion | ACO Regulated Series | 11685 | 16 Feb 2017 10:42 |
Nissan LMP1 Discussion | Gingers4Justice | Sportscar & GT Racing | 5568 | 17 Feb 2016 23:22 |
Strakka LMP1 discussion | Pontlieue | Sportscar & GT Racing | 56 | 12 Jul 2015 19:12 |
The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga | The Badger | ACO Regulated Series | 6844 | 8 Jan 2014 02:19 |
How about a LMP1 Pro & LMP1 Privateer class | Holt | Sportscar & GT Racing | 35 | 6 Jun 2012 13:44 |