[Team] McLaren - can they compete?

[GTRMagic]

If McLaren can make it through ONE session with both cars doing a full complement of laps it would ge a MILE better than they are now.

The ongoing engine penalties will kill McLaren's possibly for points to the end of the year.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

This has been suggested a number of times and would be an excellent answer to the problems (and may well tie in with Alonso's comments about waiting until after the summer break before making any decisions about next year). Unfortunately, the pessimist in me can only see problems:
1. The car would need to be totally re-engineered and probably require a different transmission in order to change the power unit. (Not insurmountable for someone like McLaren, but not a simple task either).
2. I wouldn't have thought Mercedes would be very happy having their engines so easily scrutinised by another manufacturer. If I remember correctly when McLaren moved to Honda initially Mercedes made sure that their equipment was well out of the way before Honda personnel arrived.
3. Surely there would have to be unanimous agreement from all of the other teams to allow McLaren to change PU supplier mid-season, (don't teams have to nominate their supplier before the end of May the previous year?). I really can't see all of the teams agreeing to this...
Having said all of that, I would love to see it happen and find out just how good a car the McLaren is!

How long did it take Brawn to convert their chassis from Honda power to Mercedes? It would be a huge job.. yet McLaren are likely up for it

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

Hypothetically speaking, let's say a junior powertrain engineer from either Mercedes or Ferrari was offered a job at Honda F1 Japan for a large sum of money. A year or so later the Honda engine is almost on par with the other three. Another year later it is equal or even beating Mercedes and Ferrari. That said junior engineer's reputation is now sky high, and he/she is now in high demand. It's a scenario that happens all the time in F1. Be it in powertrain, aerodynamics, suspension, etc. etc. It's how the ball roles and the engineers move up the scale. They take the knowledge they have of what works best at their old team and apply the same - or similar, at their new team. This has been the case for many a year.

It would definitely be of benefit to Honda and I agree that it is often the way F1 works but Honda have always done things fully in house - the "Honda Way" is to use in house engineers and it would be a huge admission (and huge loss of face - not to be underestimated) for them to recruit an outsider and then the power plant come good. Essentially it would be an admission that Honda, with all its resources could not do the job.

With the Japanese cultural approach, I can't see them doing it - although whether it would be more or less embarrassing than the current situation is very debatable.

[bauble]

As no fan of McLaren or Honda, I see no problems with their current situation, they deserve each other.

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

How long did it take Brawn to convert their chassis from Honda power to Mercedes? It would be a huge job.. yet McLaren are likely up for it

About 9 weeks apparently. That was 2008/09 where the engines all had different ways of mounting depending on manufacturer. Since the new V6T era, the mounting points for the engine are the same between all manufacturers. But the mounting of the engine is not the issue. It's the MGU units and associated cooling etc. that is far more complicated than it was when Brawn converted to Mercedes.

In saying that, I have heard that it would take a similar amount of time (8-9 weeks, 24 hour days) to convert PU manufacturers in 2017. It is possible that McLaren will use Mercedes engines later this season, but I don't think it will happen. But then again, with the penalties coming up for Alonso in Baku, and potentially most other rounds starting from the rear, McLaren might just say that's time's up for Honda. Sayonara!

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Tourer

I don't think that the "token" engine update system is helping (never been a fan of it myself) but clearly their problems go way beyond that.

Has not the token system been dropped as of this year; which is why some of the PUs are significantly different this season?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

The cost of getting rid of free engines to buy some expensive customers is one heck of a sobering experience. And the customer 'plants are highly unlikely of the quality to beat the works cars, so they are still destined for a patchy future.

It's not only the free PUs that McLaren receive from Honda. They have other financial assistance from Honda as well, plus Alonso's retainer is paid by them.

Dumping Honda would leave McLaren with a huge financial hole.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Has not the token system been dropped as of this year; which is why some of the PUs are significantly different this season?

My bad - not paying enough attention. In that case there really is no excuse at all is there?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Tourer

My bad - not paying enough attention. In that case there really is no excuse at all is there?

I believe that Honda decided to follow a radical redesign of their power unit for this season, but that their test-bench data and results are not being mirrored when the units are in the car on the track.

[S griffin]

Yeah and it's thrown away all the progress they made last season, they have made themselves look very amateurish

[wnut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yeah and it's thrown away all the progress they made last season, they have made themselves look very amateurish

I think you are characterizing amateurs unfairly, they usually have a goal clearly in sight and a lot of enthusiasm, I think that bureaucratic would more accurately describe Honda's efforts. No clear objective, no sense of urgency and woolly and vague execution.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It's not only the free PUs that McLaren receive from Honda. They have other financial assistance from Honda as well, plus Alonso's retainer is paid by them.

Dumping Honda would leave McLaren with a huge financial hole.

this really.

just speculating as i dont have numbers, but if they drop Honda and go to paying for their engines wont they become a team operating on a budget similar to that of Williams or Force India?

they wont be winning races let alone titles with that amount of money...so, imo, its kind of a moot point to say that 'customer' teams dont win titles or that Merc wont give them full factory support....either way they cut it they wont be winning.

not sure what to make of this bit of speculation though.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/o...-romeo-919226/

if Mclaren take on a Alfa badge does that mean they are also looking at a Ferrari engine supply?

[Paradise City]

While it'll probably be a Merc. I've now seen Mclaren-Alfa Romeo mooted, Mclaren-Renault mooted and Mclaren Nissan mooted (a Renault rebadging excercise). The one thing about Mclaren's engine troubles is that there is plenty of raw material for clickbait-speculation articles.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

...The one thing about Mclaren's engine troubles is that there is plenty of raw material for clickbait-speculation articles.

fair point but when said article appears on a website owned by the Mclaren CEO should it not carry more weight?

[Adam43]

Did it help Brawn (a little) that it was before the season and within (the very last part) of the design phase?
Probably not significant, especially considering that Brawn was not in a great position at that point.

[Gingers4Justice]

Alonso: McLaren 'could have won' UK election without Honda power.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...-won-baku-race

[S griffin]

Well they got two points, at least the SCs should have reduced the fuel saving

[knighty]

McLaren-Renault or McLaren-Infiniti.......I can see it happening based on what autosport has just said......am sure it would also make Alonso more willing to commit to McLaren for 2018 too.......why not???....

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by knighty

McLaren-Renault or McLaren-Infiniti.......I can see it happening based on what autosport has just said......am sure it would also make Alonso more willing to commit to McLaren for 2018 too.......why not???....

The problem with that is the Renault hasn't exactly been reliable either has it?

[Paradise City]

I would that almost certainly Honda will be in the back of that Mclaren next year.

[S griffin]

McLaren-Renault would be a first. Then there are rumours that Cosworth are coming back in 2021, maybe McLaren could persuade them to come back sooner...

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Then there are rumours that Cosworth are coming back in 2021, maybe McLaren could persuade them to come back sooner...

Well Honda came in a year earlier than planned and look how well that went.....

(also the new engine regs are for 2021 onwards aren't they? No point in coming in before then - you'd have to build an engine to the current regs then throw it away).

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

McLaren-Renault would be a first. Then there are rumours that Cosworth are coming back in 2021, maybe McLaren could persuade them to come back sooner...

According to this, Cosworth are committed to helping frame the new engine rules for 2021, so I doubt very much there would be any involvement before 2021.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130830

[S griffin]

I was just adding to the rumours

[Richard C]

I find it hard to believe anyone would jump in now to create a new power unit using the current specs. Regardless of how you feel about how Honda has run their program, if you look at the entire picture of long standing Mercedes dominance and a long steep climb uphill for established Ferrari and Renault programs (who are still climbing uphill even at this date), plus the fiasco of Honda... it just doesn't make any sense. Who would approve such madness?

I think the only one who "might" could be Porsche given their experience with a similar technical solution in WEC. But even then, they would have some level of learning curve, and for what? A short period before new regulations?

Regarding McLaren and Honda. I dare not put much faith in any predictions right now. Maybe insiders know. My opinion is that...

Ferrari: Probably not. I just can't see Ferrari providing a competitive engine to someone like McLaren. And would McLaren want a hobbled Ferrari unit? I just don't see them having a good working relationship.

Renault: Maybe. But Renault has their own performance and reliability issues. And they also might be in the same category as Ferrari. McLaren with a works Renault engine would very likely outperform the factory Renault team.

Mercedes: Maybe. But again it would be a lesser solution than whatever Mercedes uses. Mercedes is probably less concerned about McLaren beating them with Mercedes power.

Honda: Probably. If forced to pick the likely path, I would say they may stay with Honda, but I wouldn't put much money on that bet. If anything... Honda does seem to be making slow, slow forward progress. But progress. If I was McLaren I would ask for a variety of concessions. Probably more visibility and a larger voice in the overall engine development process.

I think I have read reports that Honda feels they are now on par with the 2016 Honda unit. That is not a glowing endorsement, but it's better than where they were. McLaren/Honda recently did wet weather tire testing as part of the Pirelli test program. While they wouldn't have been allowed to run any development parts (engine or chassis) they could have used the test to work on engine mapping of the new spec.

Richard