ARDS Questions

[Mr.Jingles]

As I said T-T, not a doctor so can't claim to have any authority at all - was just pointing out that, in my experiences, statistics can be useful but are not as 'fixed' as they might imply and are mostly misleading for everyone when you don't have a full context to place them in

For example - what chain of events have to happen for a Tonic-clonic seizure to occur? why do some people have them more often than others? Why do they 'cluster'? Why do some people only get partial siezures - and why do some people progress to T-C? etc etc.

I didn't even realise - until I started reading this - that the cycle of a womans period and hormones has a significant affect (I know this doesn't apply to you but still, it's interesting).

Statistics are funny things - for example, on a First Aid course I was asked if I could have a guess at how many people have undiagnosed Absence Seizures? The answer was "we don't know, and probably can't estimate with any confidence". Unless you have someone standing there when it happens it's apparently quite easy to miss it yourself.

All told - and as I said to you before - you've done all the right things and it seems (from the way it's been represented) that everything is perfectly safe and right, and it'll never be an issue for you again. But I can also understand why they do the checks, no matter how bloody annoying, because not everyone is as forward about things as you are

[JohnD]

Best of luck, TT.
As Mr.J says, statistics are not intuitive, and sometimes seem contrary to commonsense. Certainly an incidence - 1 in 200 - is NOT the same as a probability. As the 'deaths from fits' in the US paper show, the incidence of epilepsy is likely to be the same in America as here, but nowhere near 1 in 200 of American drivers die from having a fit at the wheel.

Let's say that an epileptic has a fit twice a year, but the fit occurs at a random time - which they do, largely. We'll ignore their usual driving habits and assume that they enter for a half hour race. There are 17568 half hours in a year, and our friend has two fits in that time. The probability that they will have their bi-annual fit in that race is 1 in 17568/2 = 1 in 8784.
Pretty long odds, for someone with poorly controlled epilepsy who would not be allowed to drive.
You haven't had a fit in ten years.

John

[Terrible-Tones]

Not surprisingly the application has been turned down flat - purely on the basis that I take drugs (medically - not the other type ).

However this is of course not what the BlueBook implies and not what I was told before applying. To say the least I am annoyed because I do not feel the MSA guys have even looked at the case on the individual merits - which I think is a little remiss. I have of course complained and I will await the outcome.

Meanwhile not all is lost - as my wife (a fellow petrol head) has just got her Nat B licence and of course we can use the car for her - so she is flying our team flag - I am sure I will get as much out of the racing by being her side-kick at meetings and of course by continuing to be a marshal and watching all you guys.

Of course I can hold a sprint licence - so it is clear that the MSA are happy for me to kill a few people doing that particular discipline instead! Bizarre!!

I might well have a go - but I am unsure if a race car is compatible with Sprint - especially as we cannot increase the BHP for the Red Dragon series races?

I know little about Sprinting but if it is another option then I am willing to have a go and show myself up as a thoroughly useless driver in that instead?

Anyone got any contacts I can talk to re Sprinting and how one starts?

[PTRACER]

That's really bad news T-T I'd be devestated if I was denied my licence.

[Suze]

Sorry to hear that TT Good luck with the appeal process.

You can sprint in a race car - the sprints I have done have included everyday cars, race cars, rally cars - you name it! Just affects the class you enter. You may find your local motor club runs a sprint championship / series, and most likely your local association will too. Venues vary from old airfields to circuits such as Brands Hatch and Lydden. I can probably help with questions you might have as help organise and compete in sprints, so drop me a PM if you like and if I don't know the answer, I'll ask someone who will and get back to you!

[Tim Falce]

Sorry to hear that T-T, keep on hassling them and hopefully they may change their minds.

[Al Weyman]

Yeah tough call TT, what car do you have BTW?

[terence]

That IS bad new's TT,but looking on the brighter side,at least sprinting is cheaper than racing and can be a huge amount of fun.Good luck with the complaint though.

[Mr.Jingles]

Sorry to hear that T-T. Keep plugging away, maybe it's time to engage directly with one of the MSA's own medical team (they have doctors on the staff, maybe the message is getting 'garbled' a bit by the internal processes before it gets to them?).

I haven't got the Blue Book in front of me - when I have I'll try and find the bit about medication. I'm sure (as you are) this isn't what it says.

[JohnD]

TT,
See your Blue Book, p.19, "Advisory Panels"
List of the Medical panel, inc. the Chair, Dr.Phil Rayner.
You might consider writing to him personally, as Chair, C/o the MSA.
May not get you what you want, but it will bring your case to the attention of the top doc.

John

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by terence bower

That IS bad new's TT,but looking on the brighter side,at least sprinting is cheaper than racing and can be a huge amount of fun.Good luck with the complaint though.

Mk1 Toyota MR2 (just waiting for it to be finished)

#74 Red Dragon Race and Track Club "MR2 Challenge"

To be driven by wifey - Nina Fountain

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jingles

Sorry to hear that T-T. Keep plugging away, maybe it's time to engage directly with one of the MSA's own medical team (they have doctors on the staff, maybe the message is getting 'garbled' a bit by the internal processes before it gets to them?).

I haven't got the Blue Book in front of me - when I have I'll try and find the bit about medication. I'm sure (as you are) this isn't what it says.

It is C (a) 26 (page 126 in current book)

There is a sentence -

"If a person with epilepsy has not had a fit OR medication to prevent or control fits for a period of 10 years they may present that case......."

Both my GP and I read that using correct grammar in that the "or" presents one of two alternatives as defined in the OED. For instance we believed that it meant that I could be fit free for 10 years but on medication, but if I, for instance, had been fit free for 15 years but only off medication for 6 years then this would be no good.

I had an interesting conversation with the MSA medical administrator who insisted that she read the "or" as "and" and that is what it meant. My view is that if that is what they meant then that is what it should say. This is poor grammer if it is the case. I fail to see how or is and - the two words are different!

In their letter denying the licence - the Medical Administrator has stated the MSA use the DVLA guidelines for a Group 2 licence for race/rally applications. These are the DVLA rules for HGV and PSV which are quite strict but much more explicit than the MSA rules. It would be useful if they told the rest of us that is what they are using - then we would know from day one. But now at least you do know for sure!

It seems the letter from the MSA was written within a couple of hours of my application beign received I don't even think it got past the administration guys - though I cannot be sure. So I am unhappy about that as well.

I have contacted the Equality and Discrimination Commission who think I might have a case - especially as I would be awarded a Sprint/HillClimb/RallyCross licence but not Race/Rally. They stated that they do not see the difference as having a fit in ANY motorsport would/could be disatrous for the driver at the very least. So how do the MSA assess that I have much less of a risk of a fit whilst driving in a Sprint than on a Race Track? Also they are intrigued as to how the MSA relate the risk assessment for HGV/PSV to racing - since the disciplines are wholly different with differing factors. They have given me a list of questions to ask the MSA - which I have.

I am hoping that this time the letter gets to the medical panel. I get the sense that there is some element of "jobsworthing" for want of a better term going on at the moment. I'll update as we go. Even if I don't get a licence I think it is useful to share information in case someone else has a problem.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Mk1 Toyota MR2 (just waiting for it to be finished)

#74 Red Dragon Race and Track Club "MR2 Challenge"

To be driven by wifey - Nina Fountain

Sorry replied to wrong message - supposed to be for Al's message asking about which car

[midgetman]

Well, I have always read that sentence to be "has had neither a fit nor medication to control (one)...for 10 years", I thought it was pretty explicit so you may be hanging on to false hope there T-T. I don't think it could be read any other way.

That's not to say I disagree with your case and I wish you the best of luck. Unfortunately, "rules is rules" and trying to change the rules because they appear to be wrong/unfair is much harder, because there needs to be a will to do the best for the customer, which is often lacking.

You'll enjoy sprints & hillclimbs though - pretty laid back way of going about motor sport and a fascinating discipline of its own. Every corner counts, because you don't have time to catch up again like you do in a race. You'll learn a lot about your own talents, the clock hides nothing!

[Terrible-Tones]

[QUOTE=midgetman;2452683]Well, I have always read that sentence to be "has had neither a fit nor medication to control (one)...for 10 years", I thought it was pretty explicit so you may be hanging on to false hope there T-T. I don't think it could be read any other way.[QUOTE]

Well being pedantic - not sure how you could read "nor" as "or" - one has an "n" in front and means something else entirely.

What you have done is added a letter "n" to make the sentence mean what you think it should mean. The Administrator felt the need to swap the word, "or" for "and", to make it mean what she felt it should mean.

Therefore either both those interpretations of meaning are wrong because that is not what the sentence says - or the sentence does not reflect what was intended - which appears to be the case here.

It is bad grammer and has led to a major misunderstanding compounded by poor advice when I rang them initially. It would have been helpful if they had mentioned the DVLA Group 2 rules in the Blue Book then we would all be singing of the same hymn sheet.

You are quite right though - can't really hang an argument on simply that - all they need to do is issue an update with the correct wording - and of course they need to enforce the rules as they stand and they see fit and are absolutely correct to do so.

My argument really centres around whether those rules comply with the law regarding discrimination. If not then they will have to be changed or reasonable adjustments made. As motorsport is naturally on the higher end of risk then proper risk assessment needs to be done and it is how this has been done and applied to my condition that I am questioning at present - with the guidance of the Commission.

In fact I don't understand the technicalities of what I have been asked to get from the MSA I have just followed the Commissions advice.

Think your right though - probably flogging a dead horse here!

Certainly look at Sprint though - someone has already PM'd me with an offer of help - everybody has been really kind regarding this issue - so thank you all very much.