Where can a late-80s F3 car be run competitively?

[PTRACER]

I know there's plenty of club series out there where such a car can be run, I'm just looking for one or two club racing series where the car can be run without too much modification (i.e. with original F3 spec engine) and still be run competitively (ie. capable of outright race wins, not just class wins which result in an overall finish outside the top 15 and not run with far more modern F3 machinery).

I believe I'm correct in saying both Mono and BRSCC (formerly Club?) F3 are out?

[tristancliffe]

You can run them with the correct engine in Mono (in the Classic Class), and whilst outright wins might be difficult, you could well be at the sharp end of the grids - especially in the wet, when the softness of the 80s machinery can overcome the downforce and cleverness of the modern stuff. The downside is the restrictors will give a sizeable power deficit to the road engines or modern F3 engines in Mono. I think late 80s were around 160hp, whereas the quick guys run around 180ish....

You could at least give it a try - a guest membership plus a race or two will see how competitive you might be.

[PTRACER]

True, but I haven't bought a car yet. If I can make good use an F3 with an F3 engine, then I will buy it. If I can't, I won't. I suppose it's not just about winning races outright either, I'd like to race against people in similarly paced machinery.

I'd like a car that's capable of outright race wins, but not just because it's a whole class above the competition. I want to have to work for it, if that makes sense.

[tristancliffe]

In Mono 2008, in the Classic 2000 class, with a 1988 F3 Reynard I was generally slower than the late 90s Dallaras by a couple of seconds per lap (partly car, partly driver lack-of-ability), but still in the top 3 or 4 finishers at most races. But this was with a non-F3 engine, which has more power, so you'd struggle in terms of power and torque.

There is, of course, the SEMSEC Single Seater championship, but being effectively open for everyone (but not Libre) you'd be up against F2 cars, F3 cars (in F3 and Mono spec), Formula Vauxhalls, Renaults etc.

BRSCC F3 would be the obvious place to run it in F3 spec, but again you'll struggle to get anywhere near the pace of a 00s car. You would get to play with it at the intended ride height though, which I gather is an exciting prospect.

Other than those three I can't think of an obvious place in Britain where an 80s F3 car could be run 'on the pace' in standard spec, and not merely compete for class wins. The difficultly is that there are not enough cars of that era wanting to be raced, so grids have to be boosted by allowing other cars, many of which are quicker.

What options are open to you in the sprinting/hillclimbing scene, or would you rather be on a grid with other people?

[PTRACER]

Must be on a grid with other people...In a single seater faster and more powerful than a Formula Ford, but affordable.

[PTRACER]

I was thinking of Monoposto, but I don't like the 2009 calendar very much. No Brands Hatch for one! Donington is great, but no Rockingham, no Oulton Park, no Cadwell

[tristancliffe]

I know... tell me about it...

[PTRACER]

There seems to be too many series around with rules that allow multiple types of cars to be entered, but then tell you to modify the car this way and that way and this way to fit with the regulations. Problem being, the fastest cars tend to be way too expensive for the average club racer, but they also tend to be many seconds per lap faster.

Monoposto 2000 would be perfect if it was literally just FF2000, Formula Renault 2000, Formula Vauxhall Lotus and other "slower" 2ltr cars, whereas post-1995 Formula 3 cars should be run in Club F3 and 1981 to 1994 Formula 3 cars get their own series. As far as I can see, there DO seem to be quite a number of mid-to-late 1980s Formula 3 cars about, they're just spread thin across multiple "open" single seater series

[RF_Racer]

Having raced in a club ff series last year, I have been looking at Mono for 09. What I am concerned about is mixing of the bike engine cars with the 1600 and 1800 cars. There is a speed difference of 8-10 seconds per lap. This must be looked into from a safety point.

[tristancliffe]

I think it has been looked into. The competitors are, in the most part, happy with it, and whilst there is a large closing speed in seconds per lap it's not that much per corner or in terms of absolute mph.

And I think all concerned are aware of the issues and give enough room in 99.9% of cases.

The trouble is that there aren't enough cars to have three grids - 1000/1400, 1600/1800, 2000/Classic/Formula, and the spaceframe cars have shown a desire not to race with too many carbon tubbed cars that tend to cause a lot of damage. Get more cars out there and three grids becomes viable (even necessary), and the problem vanishes. So enrol all your mates in Mono racing!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by RF_Racer

Having raced in a club ff series last year, I have been looking at Mono for 09. What I am concerned about is mixing of the bike engine cars with the 1600 and 1800 cars. There is a speed difference of 8-10 seconds per lap. This must be looked into from a safety point.

Plenty of series have lap time differential so 8-10 secs a lap & so the Mono 1600/1800/ Bike engine races are not particularly unusual in that. Plus the fact that virtually all of the cars are of a spaceframe construction so I am not sure that it really is a safey issue between the different classes of cars. There will always be accidents in racing but I don't recall Mono being particularly prone, or any damage caused being routinely severe.

I raced in Mono 1800 for a while and was quite happy with the safety aspects.

[PTRACER]

So to sum up (going back to the original point of this thread)...:

MONOPOSTO
+ Can race in original F3 spec
+ Can qualify the car at the sharp end of the grid
- Car will be heavily restricted and have to run a higher than usual ride height
- Will have to compete against F3 cars 10 years newer
- 2009 calendar isn't as good as last year

SEMSEC
+ Can run in original F3 spec (without restrictions?)
+ Seem to get a good number of laps for your money
+ Judging from the results, the fastest cars aren't necessarily driven by the fastest drivers.
- Races only at Brands Hatch and Lydden Hill...Mostly at Lydden.
- Will end up racing anything and everything, including modern F3 cars and faster F2 cars.

BRSCC F3
+ Can run in original F3 spec
+ Can run with similar spec cars and be competitive in class
- No chance of overall wins
- Expensive!!!

I don't know, it seems almost a waste of money to buy an F3 car now if that's all you can do with it...

[tristancliffe]

MONOPOSTO IN F3 SPEC WITH AIRBOX RESTRICTOR
+ Can qualify the car at the sharper end of the grid (hopefully!)
+ Value for money - decent entry fees versus tracktime.
- Car will be restricted and have to run a higher than usual ride height
- Will have to compete against F3 cars 10 years newer
- 2009 calendar isn't as good as last year

MONOPOSTO IN MONO SPEC
+ More power than F3 spec, plus 'fatter' torque curve
+ Can qualify the car at the sharp end of the grid
+ Value for money - decent entry fees versus tracktime.
- Have to run a higher than usual ride height
- Will have to compete against F3 cars 10 years newer (in the wet you'll be laughing though!)
- 2009 calendar isn't as good as last year
- Expensive conversion unless you buy one already in 'Mono Spec'

SEMSEC
+ Can run in original F3 spec (you'd need the restrictor unless you modify the engine to run without it)
+ Seem to get a good number of laps for your money
+ Judging from the results, the fastest cars aren't necessarily driven by the fastest drivers.
- Have to run a higher than usual ride height (MSA requirement - SEMSEC is not exempt)
- Races only at Brands Hatch and Lydden Hill...Mostly at Lydden.
- Will end up racing anything and everything, including modern F3 cars and faster F2 cars.

BRSCC F3
+ Can run in original F3 spec
+ Can run with similar spec cars and be competitive in class
- No chance of overall wins
- Expensive!!!

Yeah, looking at it like that it would be a waste of time, money and effort. But if you want to race a vaguely modern F3 car these are your options in this country. I'd much rather be limited to Mono (which is greater than the calender suggests) than race a slow tintop in a million championships. Sounds to me that the tracks and being competitive straight away are more important to you than the car, so perhaps consider a different type of car in which you can race at nicer tracks and be at the front.

But you'll be missing out, even at 40mm ride height, of the slicks and wings feeling. Whether that is important or not is ultimately up to you...

[b1ackcr0w]

Tons of cheap thrills to be had in Hillclimb and Sprint with just about any type of single seater going. Don't rule it out until you've tried it, it can be an excellent way to shakedown new machinery and maximise your seat time.

[zac510]

I'm sure many people in many other countries would love to have the choice of 4 different series to race an F3 car in!

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

[SEMSEC
- Have to run a higher than usual ride height (MSA requirement - SEMSEC is not exempt)

Plenty of people run SEMSEC and BARC SE etc. at less than 40mm.

[tristancliffe]

Doesn't mean it's allowed though! Just that everyone is a bit more relaxed about that sort of stuff. Although I'd have thought now it has championship status they would have to check that sort of thing more and more.

Besides, I don't race with them (often), so it's hardly a bother

[PTRACER]

Let's see...the following are important to me...

- Racing on a circuit against other people. I know hillclimbs can be very thrilling...very narrow circuit, relatively powerful car, takes a lot of skill, great buzz...But the buzz lasts 25 to 40 seconds, maybe a minute on the longer hillclimbs. I just prefer circuit racing.

- Value for money for both the car and the series:-
-> Rear engined, single seater...Cars with a roof don't excite me at all.
-> Cheapish car, slicks and wings, plenty of BHP. FF1600, F.Vee, F.Vauxhaull Jnr are out.
-> Preferably not bike engines
-> Decent number of laps per race...no point in paying £150, travelling 250 miles and having 10 minutes of qualifying and a 5 lap race around a circuit less than 1.5 miles long
-> Decent race calendar - number of races don't bother me, but variation is necessary. I live in Essex, hence am within 100 miles of Brands Hatch, Lydden, Silverstone, Snetterton, Thruxton and Rockingham and within 130 miles of Castle Combe, Donington and Mallory Park. SEMSEC only races at Lydden and Brands, but with so many tracks within a 100 mile radius of London, it doesn't make sense that they don't run anywhere else.

- I'd like to have a car that's capable of overall race wins, not just class wins, but not necessarily just because the car completely (but legally) outclasses everything else in that series.

- I'd like to run the car as close to original spec as possible, if not IN original spec. Meaning, I don't want to have to swap engines (unless I buy the car as a roller), or have to run it 4 inches off the ground...

I know I'm being very picky, but it's a lot of money to spend and I'd like to get it right...

[andy97]

Well, you are going to have to COMPROMISE on something, unless you are a complete driving God and can go for outright wins in a BRSCC F3 Masters Class Car! Failing that a US FF2000 type car in F4 or Mono 2000 - where they do run virtually as designed - might meet most of the criteria.

[PTRACER]

I suppose thinking about it, if I had £20,000 or £30,000 to spend, I'd buy a more recent F3 car and be able to run it in Mono, SEMSEC, or BRSCC F3 and be relatively competitive in all three (ignoring driver skill).

Although if I had that amount of money, I might be inclined to buy something much older and run it in an HSCC series.

[PTRACER]

I just want to confirm...are there currently two FF2000 series? URS Classic FF2000 and HSCC Historic FF2000?

[RF_Racer]

I think you are worrying over trivial things. How many races have you done so far? Reading one of your other threads, you have not yet raced? I do not think you should be worrying about ride heights or winning from the word go!

Buy a car which you can learn and develop your skills, then once you have a season under your belt you can worry about performance and going into faster cars.

[tristancliffe]

Buy my Reynard! It'll take you from novice (friendly, predictable, safe, forgiving and easy to work on) to championship victory via race wins (if you are a bit lucky) and easy wins in the wet (unless, like a numpty, you throw it off the track when the opportunity presents itself ).

Yes, you'll be slower than the Dallara F3 machinery in the dry, but you'd still be able to give them a run for their money once you're practiced a bit.

[PTRACER]

I only have a budget of £7500 at the moment for a car, maybe £8000 at a stretch if I borrow some money off a relative or two.

The only reason I give that figure, is because of a Ralt RT32 that was up for sale for £6500 with a Toyota F3 engine in pieces and although it's still being advertised on various places, it sold ages ago. I was hoping it hadn't yet been sold.

[schomosport]

Reality check time!!!! That £6500 Ralt is a £10,000+ Ralt bythe time it hits the track. Believe me I know. If you seriously only have £7500 to spend then its FFord, Formula Vauxhall or maybe, just maybe, a cheap FVL.

Basis: £5250 I paid for a (cheap) FVL in 2003 and subsequently spent c£4000, £7750 for my current Ralt and have spent at least £5000 on it last few years. And I do absolutely as much as possible of everything myself.

Unless you are very, very fortunate most everything on a cheap car is going to be in some state of shaggedness and will need sorting in the next season or three.

e.g. clutch plate, slave cylinder, brake discs, current harness, current fire extinguisher, possibly wheel bearings, battery, iprobably a handful of rod ends (£350) it just goes on.

Oh and biggest mistake of all is to buy a car, spend a load of money only to fall out of love with it and want something different. (FVL > Ralt experience above).

I'm not trying to discourage you, I run on a very tight budget myself and it can be done - but it can also break your heart if you don't know what you are getting in to.