Where can a late-80s F3 car be run competitively?

[PTRACER]

Originally Posted by schomosport

Reality check time!!!! That £6500 Ralt is a £10,000+ Ralt bythe time it hits the track. Believe me I know. If you seriously only have £7500 to spend then its FFord, Formula Vauxhall or maybe, just maybe, a cheap FVL.

A ready to go, on the button, Formula Vauxhall Lotus in fantastic condition, sold a few months ago for approx. £5900. Reason I know is because I had the advert in my favourites for many months until it was removed. Since then, I haven't seen a single FVL for sale.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by PTRACER

A ready to go, on the button, Formula Vauxhall Lotus in fantastic condition, sold a few months ago for approx. £5900. Reason I know is because I had the advert in my favourites for many months until it was removed. Since then, I haven't seen a single FVL for sale.

There are plenty of FVLs about, just probably in garages and not advertised. Ask the race school at Mallory, they have several & may know where a few others are located. Similarly, Dermot Healy is a very good source (he was the chap selling the RT32 you referred to).

For your budget they are a very good bet with loads of spares about, bullet proof engines & not too expensive to run. Also don't dismiss a F Ford Zetec - You could definately buy one for the money you have available & run it pretty cheaply in a mixture of Mono 1800 & F4 (Class C?) at the circuits that are local to you or or are your favourites. Make up your own calendar!

Finally, you could buy a pre 2000 F Renault for Mono &/or F4 - again, quite a few about for your budget & they have fairly modern aerodynamics and handling but you still have to run them at 40mm, I think.

How much race experience do you actually have?

[PTRACER]

Four/five years of karting between 12 and 16, but the only "proper" racing cars I've driven were the Formula cars that Brands Hatch allow people to drive for 15 minutes for £150 and an hour test session in a VW Funcup car at Donington Park. No proper races yet.

[tristancliffe]

I was in a similar position to you once. We had bought a car, but wanted to know where to run it that fulfilled a long list of requirments, mostly to avoid to silly cost of three us getting a race licence.

We did sprints. We used a local airfield (with permission). But I wanted to race, so that meant biting the bullet and getting a race licence and modifying the car to suit the regs of Mono.

Don't underestimate how much fun even the less good tracks are when you're new to the sport. Even something as dull as Silverstone National is terrible exciting the first time or two (especially Copse!). Sure Mono might not have it's best ever calender in terms of 'driving rating', but you won't notice in your first season or two. Distance is a bit of a problem, as it's quite a northern championship this year.

And don't worry about being competitive straight away. There is too much to think about, so in your first race even glancing at your gauges will be next to impossible, let alone managing to keep up with someone else, get to all the right places (scrutineering, briefings, signing on etc) etc. Your first year will have such a steep learning curve that your ONLY objective should be to bring the car back in one piece.

And don't worry about the conversion to Mono spec. Get a car that is already done, budget for the fact that even 'Race Ready' cars need money throwing at them before you unload them into your garage, and race it. When the time comes to sell you'll probably find someone who wants it in that spec.

Plus, with a Mono car you can also play in Semsec and do a round or two at Brands or Lydden to add variety

But right now, like I did three years ago, you have too many prerequisites on your list.

[wheadon]

What kart championships did you run in PT?

[PTRACER]

Well...I've always been careful to write "karting" as opposed to kart racing...

I drove in almost every official practice session for the Deavinson's Endurance Series at Rye House. Most of the time, we raced each other in the practice sessions. So, although they weren't official races, I certainly got a lot of experience dicing with other people. My kart at the time was five or six years old, but we ran the kart to championship regulations and looking at the qualifying times when they were posted on the official site after the race, I found I would have qualified in the top 6, or at least the Top 10 for most races.

At £170 entry fee alone for the race, it was expensive for a 14 year old being taken by his grandad. Not having a co-driver wasn't much of a problem, as I'd usually spend the whole six hours on the track, only stopping to eat a sandwich or two before jumping back in and carrying on.

As opposed to REAL races, that's limited to a kart tournament I did when I was 15 at Lakeside Karting circuit. The company my best friend's dad works for organised it for their employees and my best friend's dad couldn't go, so I went instead. No one had any idea who I was, so had no applause while I was standing in a race suit two sizes too small on the top step of the podium at the end waving the winner's trophy...I'd won three of the four races, one of them from last place on the grid (there was no qualifying sessions, you were given a random order to start in and I happened to start from last).

[wheadon]

Right, I reckon slicks and wing will probably be too much for you straight away and an F3 car? Well maybe not. If I was you then I'd seriously consider getting a race licence and do some races in hire cars. Vee, Fords, Mono? It's all about building up your speed, your race technique etc. These "Profesional kids" have nearly 10-12 years of racing experience behind them in karting. I remeber Colin Brown telling me (2000 world kart champion) that karting taught him all of the techinques and race craft, and all he needed to do was get used to the speed. So look at dipping your toe in the water. Vee's and Ford's arn't as slow as you think and the amount you will learn is amazing.

All I am trying to say is be careful before throwing cash at something that might not work for you and build yourself up to the level you want to be at instead of chucking yourself into the deepend.

Also 6 hours in a kart? Jesus. I was karting this weekend and I have a bruised back from only 2x30 min races!

[PTRACER]

I beg to differ that they'll be too much for me straight away...

I have my racing licence already and passed it at the first attempt with no prior tuition. The instructor said "It was pretty obvious from the beginning you knew what you were doing". I have good knowledge of the racing technique, I have a good understanding of what the car itself is doing when I'm driving it and I have good reactions, it's just a case of putting it all to practice in a proper race car.

The Formula Whatever cars I drove at Brands Hatch were desperately slow, but I still lapped the Indy circuit at an average speed of 73mph (59.163s) and would have gone faster if I'd had a completely clear track for more than a lap and more than 15 minutes in the car. Judging by the video my friend filmed of the event, no one else came even within 4 or 5 seconds of a sub-1 minute lap.

Chucking myself in at the deep end is what I've always done and I don't think the learning curve will be anywhere near as steep for me as it would be for, for example, a complete novice. Unfortunately, I have no opportunity to try any cars before I buy hence I can only take a risk and hope I've made the right decision.

I hope I haven't sounded like a cocky whatever who thinks he knows it all, because I'm not. I haven't been able to compare myself with any real racers and I can't say with any certainty that I'll do anything other than spin at every corner. I can only tell you what experience I've had already, tell you how it went and how I feel about it and hope the evidence is good enough to please the court.

[wheadon]

Sorry, I never knew you had your race licence. Them Van diemen things at Brands are crap! I must of seen you at the donnington funcup test too! We ran the whole day and they are slow and horrible cars!

If I was you i'd either run a formula 4 or an old Renault/FVL if you want wings and slicks. F3 cars cost way to much in original spec.

If you would consider a test in a formula vee or a formula ford then look into some teams who hire cars. I know the ford's will pleasently surprise you and so will the vee's. Our Sheane is a quick little bugger and when we get the 55 cam it's gonna rev to 10K!

Race technique will be the one thing which will come as a massive surprise to you. Trust me! It's learning to do it that's the hard part! Thinking 2-3 corners ahead, considering the gaps, going for the gaps, making the moves!

I see you have a strong head and well a racers head at that! I'm sure you will do well and not have a problem in whatever you do. Oh you we're never cockey neither, just a typical race driver!

[PTRACER]

Originally Posted by wheadon

Sorry, I never knew you had your race licence. Them Van diemen things at Brands are crap! I must of seen you at the donnington funcup test too! We ran the whole day and they are slow and horrible cars!

May have been! I think it was early February...Or was it March...or April...There was a sudden and very heavy hailstorm appeared from nowhere halfway through my session and after managing to catch the rear end of the car in the Craners when changing up to 4th gear and having the rear wheels spin as I reapplied the throttle, I put the car on the grass at the Old Hairpin trying to keep everything in straight line and broke the front spoiler off...


I don't doubt I'll have fun driving pretty much any single seater, even the Brands Hatch cars Just that wings and slicks float my boat, wingless cars with skinny tyres not so much

[PTRACER]

Talking to myself a bit here...helps clear my own head of confusion

I've got several realistic options..........

1. Realistically right this very second, I have £7000 to spend on a car. I could "make do" for now with a Formula Ford, Formula Vee, even a 15+ year old Formula Renault and I'm sure I can easily pick up any of those for £5500 or less. Although this is maybe logically the best idea of all, my heart is telling me I wouldn't enjoy them as much as the other options I may have available to me. Especially because I know I'll want to move onto something faster and more competitive sooner rather than later and I was thinking more long term anyway - I'd like to buy something that I'll keep for quite a long time until I find something else to do.

2. FF2000. I reckon I could get a pre-1980 FF2000 for around my budget, probably a little bit more at the moment. The money is still coming in thankfully, so in a month or two I should have enough. There are some for sale at tempting prices. If I can get a 1978 or 1979 car then I could technically run it competitively in the HSCC FF2000 series, which appears to be pre-1980 FF2000 cars only. The HSCC calendar is pretty good, the FF2000 cars have wings, slicks, they're pretty quick (as far as I know), but that's all I know about them. Taking all of this into consideration, this would tick all the boxes on the previous page, especially as the car will be eligible for HSCC FF2000, URS FF2000 Class B, Monoposto, SEMSEC and Classic F3 invitation class.

3. Wait around a bit and see if I can get a good deal on a late-80s F3 car and do what Tristan said. I suppose if I want to, I could always lower the ride height, take it to a test session or a private airfield and run it in full F3 spec there just for fun, as well as racing it in the Mono, SEMSEC, BRSCC F3 series whenever I'm able to.

4. My best friend's dad still has his Classic F3 car sitting in a garage gathering dust. He's had it for four years now, over which time he's built it up from a load of pieces and now it looks and runs great. it's unraced in its current condition, he's not sure whether to race it or sell it and we have toyed with the idea of running me in it in Classic F3 this year. Luckily there's only three or four cars in the series that are from 1978 to 1980 and the majority of the cars in the series are from the mid-1970s, so - driver skill aside - I'd be pretty happy driving it regardless of its competitiveness. And I have a "thing" for historic race cars.

Although we haven't discussed it in detail, I was thinking we would share the car (hence if he said he wanted to race it at a particular circuit, I wouldn't argue about it), I'll pay the running costs of the car when I'm using it and pay for any maintenance and repairs as if it was my own. In order to seal the deal, I'd give him a percentage of the worth of the car as a guarantee of sorts and if at any point I wanted out and decided I wanted do something else, or he decided it was time to sell the car, I'd get back my share of the car from me and do whatever from there.

Technically, this is the best option of all, because it will be with limited financial risk to myself, we already have the car, it's already race prepared, we'd have all the equipment we'd need, my friend's dad probably knows every inch of the car like the back of his hand and it would require the least effort overall. The next step would just be for me to join the HSCC and for us to take it to the first race in April (well, or testing in the meantime).

5. Fifth option is related to the fourth. Regardless of whether I race a road going MG Maestro or a modern F3 car, I'll need a mechanic. At least until I've learned enough to support myself... My friend's dad with the CF3 car said he'd be willing to help me out and get me started which I would of course be incredibly grateful for...If the FF2000 or late-80s F3 cars, or anything else that looks good, happen to be out of my reach, maybe I could strike up a deal with my friend's dad in the way of both of us investing in a really good car and sharing it like the CF3 car.

[RF_Racer]

Why dont you buy Tristans Reynard 883?

[PTRACER]

I can't afford it.

[JamesH]

Why not a Jedi? Might be a bit too expensive though. Very VERY fast, and probably not suited to a beginner though (just like a F3 car isn't really suited to a beginner).

Or going away from single seaters, how about a Global GT Lite? Might be able to get a slower one for that price.

Agree with comment above - those Funcup cars are horrible. And massively overpriced. And slower than my Locost.

What about Locosts? You are obviously on a low budget, so why not go for something in that budget. For £7500 you could by a top car, trailer and spares, and run it for a couple of years with your own maintenance. Great racing - better than Club F3 etc, but 20s a lap slower at Snetterton - although you don't notice it as you are always battling with someone, and a good proving ground.

James

James

[JamesH]

ps. WRT using your friends Dads classic F3 car - fine until you write it off. Have you considered repair costs if/when you really smash it up?

[tristancliffe]

Who do people think F3 cars are too much for a beginner? They not very powerful, they don't have a vast amount of downforce, they don't go very fast and they aren't especially light. Ideal cars for a beginner without the boredom of going FFord slow (assuming like for like amateur club drivers - I'm aware that proper, young FFord drivers are quicker at most circuits than me in an F3 car)

[PTRACER]

If I tested the CF3 car before either of us committed to anything and realised I was out of my depth, then fine, I would be happy driving something slower.

And I have already accepted that things can go wrong even when you're doing everything right, regardless of whether you're driving your own car or someone else's and regardless of whether you're a beginner or a veteran racer. I will only worry about it if it happens.

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Who do people think F3 cars are too much for a beginner? They not very powerful, they don't have a vast amount of downforce, they don't go very fast and they aren't especially light. Ideal cars for a beginner without the boredom of going FFord slow (assuming like for like amateur club drivers - I'm aware that proper, young FFord drivers are quicker at most circuits than me in an F3 car)

Well there you go... If I feel like I'm going too fast, then I'll slow down.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Who do people think F3 cars are too much for a beginner? They not very powerful, they don't have a vast amount of downforce, they don't go very fast and they aren't especially light. Ideal cars for a beginner without the boredom of going FFord slow (assuming like for like amateur club drivers - I'm aware that proper, young FFord drivers are quicker at most circuits than me in an F3 car)

OOh. Well done for insulting everybody who drives anything slower than F3!

Top FFord laps about 1.10 at Snet I think, current F3 at about 1.05. Touring cars about 1.10. At the other end, Locost at 1.28ish. That F3 figure is an average speed of over 100 I think. A friend in Club F3 has done 1.07 in a 99 Dallara (could be wrong there)

Current lap record (Ex F1 car) is 1.56.xx.

So, F3 cars are not 'slow' at only 10s/lap slower than EuroBoss F1. There is also a collosal amount to learn going straight to wings and slicks, over something like FFord or even Locost, which is why I think it might be a bit much.

I would bet that going in to a well subscribed series (Locost, Jedi, GT Lite, Stock Hatch, etc etc etc) would give a better introduction to racing that going straight in to an F3 car of any era.

You can have an enormous amount of fun and learn a huge amount without going really fast - speed isn't everything.

If you just want speed, you should drive a dragster. Or a 250 Superkart, but then you would have to have your brain removed.

[JamesH]

ps. Actually, I don't think Jedi's are particularly suited to beginners either, but just my personal opinion. (The 1000cc ones are spectacularly fast)

[tristancliffe]

I do drive an F3 car remember, albeit not of particularly recent vintage (1988, now replaced with a 1998). So I'm well aware of their lap times, my slowness compared to both BRSCC F3 and 'proper' F3 (although this is partly due to the 40mm ride heights we run in Mono). I'm well aware, as I stated in my post, that the 'proper' FFord boys are quicker in their cars than me in an F3 car at 40mm.

And it's not especially hard to drive. The '88 car is responsive, but predictable and communicative. It gives a couple of weeks notice of a slide, and a couple of months notice of a spin (although, due to an unnatural lack of driving ability, I still manage to slide and spin it occasionally ). It's easy to work on, easy to transport, easy to fix, and is probably a darn sight safer than a Locost, even taking into account that nobody understands how carbon tubs age.

The only downside is you have to avoid touching wheels with your rivals. And you can't take your girlfriend/wife out with you to show them what it's like.

I can do 1m10s at Snett in the Reynard, and Dallaras in Mono do 1m09 (with 1m08s possible if there is ever a nice day there when Mono races). Real F3 is down in 1m01 time, ClubF3 in the 1m05 region I think (although that was Aaron Steele or Edwin Jowsey doing those times, who were miles quicker than the normal club level amateur drivers normally gracing club level amateur championships - and I don't mean any disrespect to those in those championships. We've all got to acknowledge that we are not the next Senna, and that the talented lot will be quicker).

I don't think saying FFord is slower than F3 is especially insulting. Nor is saying that F3 is slower than F1.

But I'd agree that a Jedi is probably a bit much for a beginner, as that short wheelbase can't help stability. But I've not driven one, so that's a guess based on watching them and looking over them in paddocks.

[PTRACER]

Well, even watching Tristan's clips of the Reynard 883 on Youtube, it looks quick, but it doesn't look any more difficult to control than a Formula Ford. Probably easier in fact, due to the slicks, wings, wider tyres... It has more grip, things happen a bit faster, but it doesn't look unfeasibly difficult to drive.

Jedis might be quick, but they don't excite me at all. They look like go karts with a racing car body on top.

[RF_Racer]

Originally Posted by JamesH

OOh. Well done for insulting everybody who drives anything slower than F3!

Top FFord laps about 1.10 at Snet I think, current F3 at about 1.05. Touring cars about 1.10. At the other end, Locost at 1.28ish. That F3 figure is an average speed of over 100 I think. A friend in Club F3 has done 1.07 in a 99 Dallara (could be wrong there)

Current lap record (Ex F1 car) is 1.56.xx.

So, F3 cars are not 'slow' at only 10s/lap slower than EuroBoss F1. There is also a collosal amount to learn going straight to wings and slicks, over something like FFord or even Locost, which is why I think it might be a bit much.

I would bet that going in to a well subscribed series (Locost, Jedi, GT Lite, Stock Hatch, etc etc etc) would give a better introduction to racing that going straight in to an F3 car of any era.

You can have an enormous amount of fun and learn a huge amount without going really fast - speed isn't everything.

If you just want speed, you should drive a dragster. Or a 250 Superkart, but then you would have to have your brain removed.

Thats Tristan for you!

If F3 was so slow they would not have Formula Fords or Fomula Renaults as a feeder series!

Looking at your best times on you hompage you have done a 1:10.319, still a second slower than a Formula Ford of 2008 who are doing mid to low 1:09.

Also you have been racing it for 3 seasons now, so maybe you can make a bold comment it suits beginners. I would also like too add you got a fair bit of mileage by doings sprints and tests for a year or so.

I do admit that if you are an exceptional tallent you can jump straight into an F3 car and bang out fast laps, but those normally make it into the world of professional racing. In that Reynard you should be doing 1.06/7's considering tyre technology has moved on a great deal since 1988/89 as well as having some 20 bhp more than the F3 spec engine during that time

[andy97]

PT Racer, I might suggest that if you only have a £7500 budget to buy a car with, then the potential repair or engine rebuild costs on your friends Classic F3 car may make your eyes water. I'm not trying to put you off but I really think that you might lower your sights slightly! These cars are very expensive if something goes wrong (and it may not be your fault when it does). I assume that you will be hiring the car from him, or will you be paying for the subsequent engine and gearbox rebuild?

I would also suggest/ assume that if you only have £7500 to buy then you probably don't have pots of money to run your owm car with. That inevitably means, as I suggested earlier, COMPROMISE, and in the single seater world there almost certainly means something like Mono, F4, F Vee or FF1600. (& even club level FF1600 or F Vee may be more expensive to run in than the first two because of the engine rebuild costs). Can you really afford to buy new sets of tyres for every round of Classic F3 or BRSCC F3 at (guess) of £100-140 a tyre?? That's up to you but there's also a good reason why many aspring professional drivers go from karts to F Ford, its because they get to learn about gearboxes, heeling and toeing, mechanical grip etc etc. Its also obviously a cheaper proving ground!

You obviously think that you have talent. Fair enough but no one really knows yet, so it might be worth trying a F Ford Zetec (there are a few people in F4 or Mono that will offer arrive and drives, including for a test session) & seeing how you get on. If you blow everyone away in your first race then have another look at where to go next; if you are competitive with the others then that probbaly means that you are a decent club driver & thats about it & if you are slow then you can think about taking something else up or just doing for the fun of it (like me!). At least you'll know.

If you don't want to go down the arrive & drive route then you could still buy a car, do a few races to see how you get on & probably sell the car on again for very little loss. (I sold my old Vauxhall Junior 16V for the same money as I bought it for after 3 years of racing). You have your budget, it can't be stretched much so just get out there and race something that you can afford!

[tristancliffe]

Top speed - 140mph or so. Peak lateral Gs of about 2g. Not very quick really. not in absolute terms. Light years from F1 speed, or even GP2 speed really. Only marginally faster than Formula Renault, and a a little faster than FFord than that. The feeder series have very little to do with speed, and more to do with driver development (feedback, fitness), costs (why waste £10m on a driver to find if he's any good when it can be done for £50k). But for a club racing driver, not attempting to be 'spotted', or advance their career, or even make money, then I wouldn't say an F3 car is very quick at all. And as most in club racing find a setup and use it everywhere I don't think the addition of wings really muddies the water for novices either.

Yup, already stated twice that I'm crap and hence slower than proper FFord.

Two seasons. One and a half really. Only did 3 sprints - total mileage 21 miles, which is the distance I travel to work each day. Seat time measured in minutes. Only done two tests - both at Snetterton, one in 2007, one in 2008. Both held in pouring rain and abandoned early. First race meeting held in monsoon conditions at Combe with no prior driving of the car (other than an old runway) with the Mono engine. It didn't bite.

I'm sure that the Reynard would EASILY do 1.06s or 7s with a decent driver onboard. Sadly, it has me on board and therefore can't. I'm not even remotely trying to say I'm talented - quite the opposite, all the lap times suggest that I'm unnaturally untalented.

P.S. I reserve the right to change my mind about them being fast once I've driven the Dallara. But the differences are going to be (with me driving) a mph here or there unless I'm really crap in it, or turn out to be the reincarnation of Senna (and I don't believe in reincarnation, so read between the lines).

[PTRACER]

Originally Posted by RF_Racer

If F3 was so slow they would not have Formula Fords or Fomula Renaults as a feeder series!

(Modern) Formula Ford and Formula Renault series are there for little kiddies to play racing driver and fail at it. It's the same with Formula BMW. Have you seen the standards of driving in these series? Pitiful. And it's only got worse over the last 5-8 years. I don't want to drive an F3 car because "I think I have the talent to drive it", I think it's more to do with being old enough to drive it, having some sense of self-preservation and maturity that a 16 year old driver doesn't have. And that's what really stops me from buying a Formula Ford, thinking that - and no offence to clubbies who drive them - Formula Fords are for kids.

Originally Posted by andy97

I assume that you will be hiring the car from him, or will you be paying for the subsequent engine and gearbox rebuild?

[...]

I would also suggest/ assume that if you only have £7500 to buy then you probably don't have pots of money to run your owm car with.

The general idea is, I'll drive the car, he'll be the mechanic. As I said in another post, we haven't talked about the finer details of who's paying for what and he hasn't even agreed to it yet, he's just considering it.

I've been told that an engine rebuild will cost £3000 to £4000, but he said he has done it himself in the past. Besides, it may only need one at the end of the year and could even wait until the end of next year. He may have sold it by the time we need to worry about engine rebuilds.

Not only that, I'm self-employed and over the last week or so, jobs have been rolling in and touch wood, will continue to do so. £7500 is what I have right this very moment in time. In one or two months down the line, I may have another few grand saved up. If I don't make the season openers in April, then fair enough, I still have the rest of my life to save up to buy a car, I will just have to wait until I do have the money. I'm not tied down with bills, girlfriends, or masses of friends who invite me out every night.

Originally Posted by andy97

Can you really afford to buy new sets of tyres for every round of Classic F3 or BRSCC F3 at (guess) of £100-140 a tyre??

My friend's dad has run an entire season on one set of tyres before, they won't be changed every race.