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Old 15 Jul 2011, 00:56 (Ref:2926884)   #1
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Closed cockpits- Closer to reality then we might think?

Just unearthed this recent video of the FIA conducting crash tests on two different strength canopies.



Not quite sure what to think! All the drivers know that when they step into the car there is a chance they might not be stepping out alive, is this just a belated knee-jerk reaction to the accidents of Henry Surtees and Felipe Massa? I'd be interested in seeing what sort of damage a suspension spring could do to one of those canopies...
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Old 15 Jul 2011, 02:31 (Ref:2926894)   #2
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"All the drivers know that when they step into the car there is a chance they might not be stepping out alive,"

I find the above statement offensive. Just because a driver accepts a risk in order to do something he loves, does not mean that everyone should not continue trying to mitigate known risks.

The canopies would be a good idea!
We may still have Alan Stacey, Mike Spence, Helmut Koeinnig, Tom Pryce, Ayrton Senna, Henry Surtees and probably would have prevented Massa's injury.
Heading into an accident with your head exposed, when a car rides up over yours or an object comes toward you on a race track does not seem very bright. (Besides adds more road car relevance )
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Old 15 Jul 2011, 08:47 (Ref:2926962)   #3
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There is one of those canopies fitted to "my" aircraft and very strong it is too. Mind you we have to lift it off with a crane so there may be a weight issue there . Having said that mine is the two seat version so the guy in the back could play with all the dials and knobs while the bloke up front could concentrate on hitting his braking points and apexes -sorted!
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Old 15 Jul 2011, 09:41 (Ref:2926986)   #4
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"All the drivers know that when they step into the car there is a chance they might not be stepping out alive,"

I find the above statement offensive. Just because a driver accepts a risk in order to do something he loves, does not mean that everyone should not continue trying to mitigate known risks.

The canopies would be a good idea!
We may still have Alan Stacey, Mike Spence, Helmut Koeinnig, Tom Pryce, Ayrton Senna, Henry Surtees and probably would have prevented Massa's injury.
Heading into an accident with your head exposed, when a car rides up over yours or an object comes toward you on a race track does not seem very bright. (Besides adds more road car relevance )
Agree totally.

The purists may feel that it no longer looks like a single seater rather more like a sports prototype. But surely that's a very small price to pay. Let's get real here. None of us watch motor racing to see people decapitated and if this saves even one driver's life, it's a very good idea indeed.
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Old 15 Jul 2011, 14:31 (Ref:2927107)   #5
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None of us watch motor racing to see people decapitated
Wow... it seems I was wrong here. I'm quite shocked.
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Old 15 Jul 2011, 23:33 (Ref:2927257)   #6
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Wow... it seems I was wrong here. I'm quite shocked.
Ugly, distressing, and apparently totally accurate obsevation!
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Old 15 Jul 2011, 08:51 (Ref:2926964)   #7
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I really don't know what to make of this.

I understand why they'd want them, but does this mean all single seaters would have these fitted as standard?

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Old 15 Jul 2011, 09:15 (Ref:2926979)   #8
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I guess they would percolate down. My only concern with these would be speed of getting out of the car, which I feel sure the fly boys have already got sorted out.

Things that can hit the driver on the head are something that need to be avoided, that is probably the most dangerous thing in a modern single seater (well, toss-up between that and wheel over wheel crashes).

Off topic comment alert
I have to type this or my brain will explode!

As a sidepoint, not only single seaters have this problem, I remember in a BTCC support race (I think it was SEATs or Clios) where one of the tyres they stick on the corners bouncing in to a touring car windscreen, with the tyre winding up making a massive tyre-sized hole. Now if that happened in a single seater race, it could be curtains. Perhaps in some cases race track furniture could actually be a bit more thought out e.g. not having heavy stuff on the inside of corners, just stick polystyrene advert hoardings there or something equally breaky-uppy in case it gets hit.

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Old 28 May 2012, 17:54 (Ref:3080706)   #9
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I guess they would percolate down. My only concern with these would be speed of getting out of the car, which I feel sure the fly boys have already got sorted out.

Things that can hit the driver on the head are something that need to be avoided, that is probably the most dangerous thing in a modern single seater (well, toss-up between that and wheel over wheel crashes).

Off topic comment alert
I have to type this or my brain will explode!

As a sidepoint, not only single seaters have this problem, I remember in a BTCC support race (I think it was SEATs or Clios) where one of the tyres they stick on the corners bouncing in to a touring car windscreen, with the tyre winding up making a massive tyre-sized hole. Now if that happened in a single seater race, it could be curtains. Perhaps in some cases race track furniture could actually be a bit more thought out e.g. not having heavy stuff on the inside of corners, just stick polystyrene advert hoardings there or something equally breaky-uppy in case it gets hit.

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That is exactly the thought I was having. It's all very well having something like to protect the driver from projectiles, but what happens when he/she needs to get out in a hurry (e.g. in case of an engine fire) or medical people need to get in?

A solution for this would be a Co2 release system with buttons inside the cockpit and on the engine cover/side pod.

Also, if you're going to have what is effectively a 'windshield' then you're also going to need a windshield wiper for when it rains (unless you use Rain-X or a similar coating system).
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Old 30 May 2012, 01:53 (Ref:3081580)   #10
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This video of the Mike Conway Will Power crash at the 2012 Indy 500 graphically illustrates the dangers facing open cockpit drivers.
Conway's head on the wall, fortunately the car was going backwards, Power's car going underneath Conway's car, Power's wheel prevented from hitting him in the head by the tether. Loose wheel very nearly impacting passing cars (Helio Castro-Nevis' incar shot - close call), further loose wheel just running down the circuit.

The fact that nobody got hurt was way more good luck than good management!

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/sport...dianapolis-500#

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Old 14 Jun 2012, 02:46 (Ref:3090501)   #11
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Toyota open cockpit EV for Pikes Peak with forward cockpit protection.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/n...on-pikes-peak/
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Old 15 Jul 2011, 10:08 (Ref:2927002)   #12
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I'm not totally against it by any stretch of the imagination. It's just a huge change, isn't it?

I guess it's the next in the cycle of no helmets, to small helmets, to full sized helmets, now to this.

It perhaps offers a chance for other series (Superleague etc) to not follow suit (for better or for worse...).

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Old 15 Jul 2011, 12:16 (Ref:2927042)   #13
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Why not just stop motorsport altogether? Then there'll be no risk at all.

I don't think it is necessary. Firstly, in my opinion it would look ridiculous and secondly, there will presumably be an issue with vacating the car within X seconds. Thirdly...just no. What next, wrapping the cars in cotton wool?
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Old 15 Jul 2011, 12:28 (Ref:2927052)   #14
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Why not just stop motorsport altogether? Then there'll be no risk at all.

I don't think it is necessary. Firstly, in my opinion it would look ridiculous and secondly, there will presumably be an issue with vacating the car within X seconds. Thirdly...just no. What next, wrapping the cars in cotton wool?
I can't believe they put canopies on jet planes either - bunch of pansies. Open face helmet should be more than adequate.
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Old 17 Jul 2011, 14:21 (Ref:2927710)   #15
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Why not just stop motorsport altogether? Then there'll be no risk at all.

I don't think it is necessary. Firstly, in my opinion it would look ridiculous and secondly, there will presumably be an issue with vacating the car within X seconds. Thirdly...just no. What next, wrapping the cars in cotton wool?
HEAR HEAR! Let's go one further and go back to wearing leather helmets. Hey, why don't we close all the roads and railways, ground all the planes, dig up all the airfields into crop fields and un-invent the wheel. I think we were much better off in the stone age!

Sarcasm aside, I think this could be a very good idea. I mean, if we've exhausted all our options with head and neck protection and so forth, this would probably be the next level. Also, with regards to extraction time, surely some of those LeMans cars are a bit awkward? I didn't hear of anyone moaning about those!

Motorsport is evolving all the time, and I think this is one idea that could work, if it's implemented correctly. Let's face it, you can't get much worse of an idea than "controlling the weather", now, can you? It just shows that not all these ideas are from La La Land!

[EDIT] Idea!: Why not have a device that, upon releasing the belts, releases the canopy too? That would work for the driver. For marshals, I don't suppose an extra button to push would be that horrifying of a thought... Would it?

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Old 24 Jul 2011, 05:25 (Ref:2930331)   #16
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Why not just stop motorsport altogether? Then there'll be no risk at all.

I don't think it is necessary. Firstly, in my opinion it would look ridiculous and secondly, there will presumably be an issue with vacating the car within X seconds. Thirdly...just no. What next, wrapping the cars in cotton wool?
I think such a way of looking at things can bring no improvement to life. Then why did we add seat belts. lets take them off because they werent there in the very early single seaters very back in the days. Right?!
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Old 15 Jul 2011, 12:48 (Ref:2927060)   #17
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I think the point here is that drivers understand the situation when they sign up. They know and love motor racing the way it is, or they wouldn't have joined it in the first place.

That's not to say technology and safety should come to a stand still, but it's a very tricky line to walk, isn't it?

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Old 15 Jul 2011, 13:38 (Ref:2927078)   #18
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Should Formula 1 abandon its character as open-cockpit series, it should then also abandon its open-wheel character. Such would improve safety and fits Formula 1's pursuit for reduced fuel consumption and a green(er) image.
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Old 15 Jul 2011, 14:16 (Ref:2927099)   #19
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My only concern with these would be speed of getting out of the car, which I feel sure the fly boys have already got sorted out.
ejector seats! F1 needs ejector seats immediately!

seriously though it is a fine line. obviously you must try to increase safety and the powers that be will move it ever closer to that line where it ceases to be a sport and turns into something that no longer reflects why we watch it and why drivers choose to compete in it.

sadly where that line is i wont know until they cross it and i stop watching and caring but i have to wonder does this road just move us closer towards an era where 20 odd 'drivers' sit in the safety of their simulators and remotely control the cars on track?
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Old 15 Jul 2011, 16:50 (Ref:2927139)   #20
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Do Moto GP forums have these types of discussions or do they just get on with it?
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Old 15 Jul 2011, 17:05 (Ref:2927143)   #21
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Do Moto GP forums have these types of discussions or do they just get on with it?
I think bikers are more discriminating, they probably don't let the jobsworths and H&S types in

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Old 16 Jul 2011, 16:35 (Ref:2927444)   #22
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Do Moto GP forums have these types of discussions or do they just get on with it?
Do any of them have enough fingers remaining or unbroken to type?
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Old 23 Jul 2011, 10:04 (Ref:2930050)   #23
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Do Moto GP forums have these types of discussions or do they just get on with it?
AWESOME post.

When all branches of motorsport are homogenised into generic sportscar designs, that's when I think I'll finally be jaded enough to pursue other interests. IndyCar is already going that route by adding what have already been referred to as 'bumpers' It's funny, I don't remember wheel to wheel contact being anywhere near as much of a frequent problem in the US prior to the IRL and their flight happy Dallaras with underpowered engines that encourage pack racing.

F1 has never been safer, but it seems to attract more health and safety zealots than any other formula. It's funny how national series such as British F3, still mega quick relative to the old-school circuits they race on, just go about their business while there's a predictable over reaction and debate after every big accident in F1 these days (ie. Perez at Monaco).

Sensible improvements have been made (ie. raised cockpit sides, barrier technology) but the sport has to retain an element of risk; it's simply part of the spectacle and what makes these drivers HEROES doing something we know we could never do. No-one is forcing anyone to race in single-seaters or F1. If someone feels that risk isn't for them, then go and do touring cars or sportscars or take up some other sport.
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Old 23 Jul 2011, 10:41 (Ref:2930068)   #24
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Sensible improvements have been made (ie. raised cockpit sides, barrier technology) but the sport has to retain an element of risk; it's simply part of the spectacle and what makes these drivers HEROES doing something we know we could never do. No-one is forcing anyone to race in single-seaters or F1. If someone feels that risk isn't for them, then go and do touring cars or sportscars or take up some other sport.
Exactly why safer cars are a good idea. They we can get rid of the neutered Tilke-dromes and have them race at proper tracks again, without constantly killing drivers.
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Old 23 Jul 2011, 16:21 (Ref:2930149)   #25
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Exactly why safer cars are a good idea. They we can get rid of the neutered Tilke-dromes and have them race at proper tracks again, without constantly killing drivers.
That would never happen. Even the cars were made so safe you could walk away from a 200mph head on with a brick wall, the FIA would still want to make absolutely sure. So all the car-park circuits would have to remain.
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