Renault Cahoots?

[White flag man]

Yes, yes we all know what we saw. You're not thinking about what we didn't see or hear!

[E.B]

If we see fact, hear fact from those closest involved and it all fits the actual scenario, then I dont see the need to even think about what we didnt hear or see.... that is just creating a (false) conspiracy theory for the hell of it.

At the end of the day Mark himself had a bad weekend and by his own doing in qualifying and another poor start, coupled to an error early in the race which caused a heavy contact with a wall let himself down. In the same way as Alonso had a bad weekend only matched by his team's strategy.

All of which left the one person who didnt choke or let himself down, and performed without so much as a flaw all weekend to win the title and deservedly so.

End of story and no need for conspiracy theories.

[White flag man]

E.B,
You only hear, from those closest involved, what they want you to hear.
If you go back to Hungary, how many people at Ferrari, including both drivers, tried to convince us there were no team orders?
You have to ask yourself, why did Webber have such a bad weekend, on the one weekend when he needed to be on top form?
Now we know that a lot in the car is controlled from the pits, so could this be where the answer lies.
Why did they bring him in when they did, when they didn't at Singapore?
Why, after Alonso took the bait, could Webber not even get near him, even though, on paper, he had a much faster car, as Vettel proved.
Don't believe everything you see, and hear, my friend.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by White flag man

E.B,
You only hear, from those closest involved, what they want you to hear.
If you go back to Hungary, how many people at Ferrari, including both drivers, tried to convince us there were no team orders?
You have to ask yourself, why did Webber have such a bad weekend, on the one weekend when he needed to be on top form?
Now we know that a lot in the car is controlled from the pits, so could this be where the answer lies.
Why did they bring him in when they did, when they didn't at Singapore?
Why, after Alonso took the bait, could Webber not even get near him, even though, on paper, he had a much faster car, as Vettel proved.
Don't believe everything you see, and hear, my friend.

Fair comment and in many cases I would agree....

However with the German GP Ferrari bizzo, we all saw and we all heard the dialogue that led to the switch, and despite what Ferrari told us we had already seen and heard all the evidence we needed to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

The main reason they brought Mark into the pits was as they said due to the impact with the wall on the previous lap. I did mention in another thread I think that Mark was suffering from rear tyre wear and even the F1 livee timing commentary felt Webber was struggling for grip. The hit against the wall as we all saw from the sparks was fairly severe and left the team fearful that the rim would have been damaged leaving the tyre liable to deflate, an event which had it happened on track would have ended any title aspirations on the spot. It meant satisfying their concerns over the future of that rear tyre with a stop that was not an additional stop but rescheduling their planned stop to change tyres.

This decision to pit Mark was perhaps with the benefit of the experience at Singapore when Bridgestone stated Mark's front tyre, dislodged on the rim in the Hamilton clash, would not have stayed inflated for more than another lap. It was, as every one agreed (even Mark) a very fortunate win in the circumstances.

Of course the other potential plus side of pitting Mark early was the likleyhood that Mark would come out clear of Alonso..... until Ferrari pulled their unexpected and indeed erroneous call and 'master strategy' when they pitted Alonso to cover Mark, which in turn not only buggered Mark's chance of progress, also led to Alonso's downfall, as on a track where overtaking was nigh on impossible. They were both back in traffic and despite being vastly quicker potentially than the Renault were stuck behind Petrov...... they were not the only fast car hampered, and even Lewis 'Mr Overtaking hero' Hamilton, in a fast car also had trouble and was unable to pass Kubica at the time.

Vettel, in clear air and not troubled by traffic or once Button pitted late in the race left Vettel in the lead and unhampered by any traffic.

Of course that is one opinion and you have yours. I believe mine to be more factually based than yours which to me is based more on assumption perhaps even a bit of bias. At the end of the day if that is what you want to believe it is your choice.

I guess, bottom line is we will have to agree to disagree in this case.

[White flag man]

E.B,
You put forward a very good case for the defense (of RBR), based on the evidence that was seen by all, and the fact that Webber did hit the armco cannot be ignored.
As there is no concrete evidence that RBR manipulated the result, I may be on a hiding to nothing, though I'm still not convinced.