Alonso's radio call, Abu Dhabi

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

How many more times do we have to hear this rubbish? There is a Drivers Championship. There is a Constructors Championship. There is no Team Championship.

Unfortunately there isn't a forum pedant Championship. Fortunately there isn't a good discussion championship here.

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

It's rather badly named then, isn't it?

Is it a really bad name, or is it just that some people don't take it in the right context?

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Chicanery

Rather, the point I was making is that it was surprising that, in that race, team orders were coming from the pit wall AND the cockpit of the lead driver. To me that smacks not just of having a lead driver, but more, perhaps someone with more authority than a typical driver, more in the mould of Schumacher in his Ferrari days.

To me, it looks like a lead driver who is really really good at being a lead driver - and still not good enough, considering the result. I really don't see the problem. Massa's job at this stage of the season was to help Alonso, if Alonso has any input on what shape that help should take, why shouldn't he be allowed to say it?

[E.B]

Ultimately a lead driver is only ever going to be able to win a WDC with the best team of engineers, designers and strategists around him.

As we have seen repeatedly a top driver is limited by the factors above (plus a good development budget to put in place the updates to a car over a year.)

Ultimately a good team in the background is more important than a top driver 'leading' the show. We have seen many occassions when this has been proven both ways, where the best car wins with not the best driver at the wheel (ie as we saw with Webber leading the drivers championship for most of the year) and of course where the (alleged at the time) best driver has struggled with a less than best car package.(ie Shumacher /Ferrari in 2005)

Lets not forget it is the team (WCC) championship which earns the teams the dollars to go racing, and most teams would prioritise the WCC result. RBR staff for instance had all their bonuses paid on the WCC result, although Vettel received a seperate and additional WDC bonus from the team. RBR earnt nothing in $$$ terms for winning the WDC, although clearly it earnt them the media and TV coverage and brand exposure that keeps the sponsors happy (in the case of this year the team owner was the sponsor of course) and gives those in F1 sponsorship the justification to put their corporate profits on the line.

Who was the real winner in 2010? The nost important person at RBR?

Well, if you are honest then Adrian Newey and his technical team were. He / they gave the RBR drivers the best equipment and package to do the job, despite other areas of team management and both drivers doing their utmost at times to nullify the advantage he gave them.

Without his department RBR would have potentially been a nothing team regardless of the drivers input or demands.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Unfortunately there isn't a forum pedant Championship. Fortunately there isn't a good discussion championship here.

I'll treat that comment as it deserves.

Originally Posted by Adam43

Is it a really bad name, or is it just that some people don't take it in the right context?

What, then, do you think is the right context?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by E.B

Ultimately a lead driver is only ever going to be able to win a WDC with the best team of engineers, designers and strategists around him.

Who was the real winner in 2010? The nost important person at RBR?

Well, if you are honest then Adrian Newey and his technical team were. He / they gave the RBR drivers the best equipment and package to do the job, despite other areas of team management and both drivers doing their utmost at times to nullify the advantage he gave them.

Without his department RBR would have potentially been a nothing team regardless of the drivers input or demands.

Valid points and subsequently reasons why the technical rules should be changed so the balance moves back toward the drivers input more than it currently does for the WDC.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I'll treat that comment as it deserves.

Good, there was no benefit to the discussion in the pedantic assertion. We all knew what was meant/going on.

I can't wait for these kind of discussions to move on and treat the subject in a mature manner and also to come up with something new and worth discussing.

What, then, do you think is the right context?

It is implicit in understanding the sport, its history and that it isn't exactly like other sports.
For the simplistic context you need to be thinking A1GP, and even then...

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Valid points and subsequently reasons why the technical rules should be changed so the balance moves back toward the drivers input more than it currently does for the WDC.

I too agree that the weighting should go more to the driver. However these isn't quite the same as the subject in hand. The driver should make more difference, yes, but all these interest team interjections philosophies should continue. However, look at the last race, and look at Red Bull. The driver had a big impact there. In a pure sporting context, one went for it and dominated, the other let the pressure get to him and choked. Sport at its best.

In my opinion, we should not be messing with this team stuff. The sport has always had this. Why fundamentally change (ruin) a sport like this? If you want a simplistic drivers championship then we should start from scratch rather than try to mold something that just isn't like that. Identical cars, drawn from a hat, same set-up. Low tech so that consistency can be achieved. Fine, do it.

I can't really think of an analogy, because F1 is different to other sports. However what about the Marathon, this has too much variety, too many hills, altitude changes. That favours some over others, why not hold it on an indoor track always at sea level? It fundamentally changes the sport to achieve something 'fairer' rather than embracing the history and what it has always been. As I say a poor analogy. Cue pedant picking at. However try and see what I am getting at.

However it strikes me that several different aspects are getting mixed up here. Team orders, car differences, hatred of some, ....

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Chicanery

--------------------------------
ALONSO'S RADIO CALL- ABU DHABI

Leafing through F1Fan**ics, I came across an interesting blog containing a transcript of some radio messages passed between Alonso and his engineer on the pitwall. Here is a particularly interesting communique from the transcript:

Lap 12

Webber pits.

AS: “Webber has stopped and Vettel is also losing ground on Hamilton.”
Fernando Alonso: “If you see that Felipe can overtake him in a lap call him in.”
AS: “We are thinking about it, concentrate on Button.”

As already asked above. Can this be collaborated?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Adam43

In my opinion, we should not be messing with this team stuff. The sport has always had this. Why fundamentally change (ruin) a sport like this? If you want a simplistic drivers championship then we should start from scratch rather than try to mold something that just isn't like that.
, ....

When the world drivers championship was created there was no 'teams championship' or 'constructors' titles, only the WDC. Following your logic maybe we should be creating a real constructors championship and leaving the present WDC to be what it was originally created to be.....

My original comment wasn't aimed at a spec championship at all, but if it is a true WDC then a formula where drivers are fundamentally prevented from real wheel to wheel (close) racing because of inherent problems with car aerodynamics means there is something left to be desired in the present specifications, regardelss of the team orders, team rivalry or constructors / teams championship. Mt todt wants passing. Well if he isn't prepared to deal with one of the primary problems we have in the current specification he might as well be PITW.

[E.B]

Different eras, different concepts..... Dont forget pre the WCC you had such anomalies as Fangio winning the 1954 WDC with wins driving both Mercedes and Maserati cars, and drivers regularly drove for a different team at stages of a season often dependaant on car availability..

[Chicanery]

Dead Eye,

Interesting points you make, I'm tempted by some of it, but here's some responses.

Alonso still not being good enough 'considering the result': I think that is a tad unfair on Fernando. In my eyes no other driver could have done more to pull a car that over the course of the season was rarely the fastest, to the brink of the championship. Winning five GPs in that car is a striking statistic, especially given the Red Bull qualifying record, and the reasonable accusation that a Red Bull driver should have sown the matter up long before Abu Dhabi. The question from my point of view however is whether some of Alonso's achievment was precipitated by a team ultimately geared towards Alonso, right from the start.

You've got to say that there are few teams this season who, I theorise, would have swapped the order of their drivers, at a mid-season race, when the second driver was by no means mathematically out of the championship hunt (albeit he was behind).

Massa's treatment, and the authority that Massa arguably has over him, smacks of Ferrari's treatment of Barrichello in the Schumacher days. That wasn't really a case of supporting whichever driver was leading the championship after a certain stage, but rather supporting the lead driver right from the off, thereby meaning the second driver never really had a chance to drive to his full extent. Whether it was outright, or subtle psychological, treatment and team gearing, I didn't admire it. And I trust I'm right in saying a healthy amount of other fans agreed.

Think the crowd and worldwide reaction at Austria 2002.

Massa's treatment at Ferrari is apparently verging into that territory,

[Chicanery]

Adam43,

I will have a look for corroboration (?), and get back to you.

________________________________

Previous quote from Chicanery:

"Massa's treatment, and the authority that Massa arguably has over him."

Correction:

"Massa's treatment, and the authority that Alonso arguably has over him."

[Wims]

Originally Posted by Chicanery

...

You've got to say that there are few teams this season who, I theorise, would have swapped the order of their drivers, at a mid-season race, when the second driver was by no means mathematically out of the championship hunt (albeit he was behind)....

Ferrari knows that one point is worth one point, wether its in the first race of the season or the last. The championship consists of all the races in one season, not just the last four or five races. To think that team orders is bad during the start of the season, but OK towards the end is incredibly hipocritic

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Chicanery

Adam43,

I will have a look for corroboration (?), and get back to you.

________________________________

Previous quote from Chicanery:

"Massa's treatment, and the authority that Massa arguably has over him."

Correction:

"Massa's treatment, and the authority that Alonso arguably has over him."

Tut! tut! Don't be a pedant.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Chicanery

Massa's treatment, and the authority that Massa arguably has over him, smacks of Ferrari's treatment of Barrichello in the Schumacher days.

I don't like team orders or what happened in Germany, but to be fair, Felipe, with the exception of out qualifying Fernando at Bahrain never looked like getting anywhere near him all season and had Seb not backed Alonso up, allowing Massa round the outside this buisness would never have happened.

Alonso'a authority was stamped all over Massa and the team well before Germany and despite Rob Smedleys making the situation obvious to the watching world, he was actually right, Alonso was faster than Massa. Felipe was never going to get himself in a position to challenge for the title (can't see him doing so in future either sadly) whereas Alonso did.

Doesn't make it any easier to stomach mind you.

With regards to your Schumacher comment. The difference between Austria 2002 and Germany 2010 (i know you didn't actually mention Austria) is that in 2002 Ferrari had a dominant car and Schumacher a 44 point lead (iirc), Germany, Ferrari had a slower car, and had to do something to catch up in the standings.

[Bononi]

I agree with all you said above. My point is, so Ferrari has Massa as only a number two driver, hired to help Alonso. The argument that Alonso is better than Massa is redundant, that he was always better than Massa during the season is default. I won't argue about Germany, as we all did in detail, and the points you're making are not really reason enough for what was made. If people here are trying to justify Ferrari team orders, is absolutely unnecessary.
Give something to discuss about, as I can see nothing here that's worth doing it.
If that conversation really existed, is clear to me that Alonso has some authority about strategy but if it happens is another completely different story... the "We are thinking about it, concentrate on Button" part is very enlightening.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

When the world drivers championship was created there was no 'teams championship' or 'constructors' titles, only the WDC. Following your logic maybe we should be creating a real constructors championship and leaving the present WDC to be what it was originally created to be.....

To be clear that is not my logic at all.

My original comment wasn't aimed at a spec championship at all, but if it is a true WDC then a formula where drivers are fundamentally prevented from real wheel to wheel (close) racing because of inherent problems with car aerodynamics means there is something left to be desired in the present specifications, regardelss of the team orders, team rivalry or constructors / teams championship. Mt todt wants passing. Well if he isn't prepared to deal with one of the primary problems we have in the current specification he might as well be PITW.

Dunno what PITW is?

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Tut! tut! Don't be a pedant.

That is a bit desperate to get back at me. Especially as my original point was about not adding anything to the discussion. I haven't worked out what your point added. I was trying to get away from the playground posting.

I asked, not to be a pedant, but was just curious where it came from (as the other user was), so I can have a full read.

Maybe we can mature the discussion a little?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Bononi

My point is, so Ferrari has Massa as only a number two driver, hired to help Alonso.

To be fair mate, i don't think that Massa was hired to be number 2 to Alonso. I think that the team felt obligated to him after his accident and gave him the oppotunity for this season.

Trouble for Felipe is, he was fairly even with Kimi, if not a little better over the long run, despite Kimi's world title. Alonso may have won his title in 2005, but Kimi seemed not far off him, but this season has shown how much better Fernando is over Kimi and therefore Felipe.

Felipe, imo, wasn't hired as Fernando's number 2 but the way this season has gone has now dictated that, same way as, i now belive that Webber will be number 2 to Seb and maybe Button to Hamilton.

[Chicanery]

Adam 43, I think the pedant comment was, perhaps fairly, meant for me.

Still haven't got back to you on veracity of radio call, will do when have a mo

[Wims]

Originally Posted by Mr V

To be fair mate, i don't think that Massa was hired to be number 2 to Alonso. I think that the team felt obligated to him after his accident and gave him the oppotunity for this season.

Trouble for Felipe is, he was fairly even with Kimi, if not a little better over the long run, despite Kimi's world title. Alonso may have won his title in 2005, but Kimi seemed not far off him, but this season has shown how much better Fernando is over Kimi and therefore Felipe.

Felipe, imo, wasn't hired as Fernando's number 2 but the way this season has gone has now dictated that, same way as, i now belive that Webber will be number 2 to Seb and maybe Button to Hamilton.

The only thing this season has shown is that Alonso is alot quicker than post-crash Felipe

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by jab

Well he has won the championship twice, and was Ferrari's only contender in this one. Why shouldn't he?

I think what should be under more scrutiny is the fact that Massa wasn't good enough to do what Alonso wanted him to do

Or the fact that Alonso wasn't good enough to do what he wanted to!

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I think that the team felt obligated to him after his accident and gave him the oppotunity for this season.

I think there's no such kind of obligation in business, that would put things in a very emotional way, and Ferrari prove that they aren't at Germany. This is how people feel or would like to feel. Massa had contract for this year, and so nothing should be done about it.

Originally Posted by Mr V

Trouble for Felipe is, he was fairly even with Kimi, if not a little better over the long run, despite Kimi's world title. Alonso may have won his title in 2005, but Kimi seemed not far off him, but this season has shown how much better Fernando is over Kimi and therefore Felipe.

This is my point. Teflonso is way much better than Massa, in the same sense people always talk about one being better than other. Ferrari is not a team to have two guys fighting with each other as RBR or Williams, or even Mclaren. That's why Teflonso suits well, so far, for the team. That's what I'm talking about, Massa is a strong team mate that Ferrari wants, and is second driver to Teflonso. What else is there to discuss ?
The whole subject is not about Teflonso being an authority on strategy or not. And in my opinion, he might have, but how much and how serious the team takes it.

Originally Posted by Mr V

Felipe, imo, wasn't hired as Fernando's number 2 but the way this season has gone has now dictated that, same way as, i now belive that Webber will be number 2 to Seb and maybe Button to Hamilton.

I think in the all three teams/drivers that won't happen. Felipe plays second fiddle in the team simply because all efforts are directed to Teflonso, that was clear when tires did not suit his style but Teflonso's... and that's the reason he struggled all season, though most people tends to ignore it. BS.
He hopes that the Pirelli set would be better for him, but I doubt the team would favour him in any aspect. It's the Barrichello/Ferrari story all over again. But maybe, just maybe, we could have a surprise.
I doubt that Webber will be second to Vettel, even if the team try to force it... And I don't think there's any chance that McLaren will try to put Button in the same position.
This is all good for talking but hardly will happen.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Bononi

I doubt that Webber will be second to Vettel, even if the team try to force it... And I don't think there's any chance that McLaren will try to put Button in the same position.
This is all good for talking but hardly will happen.

I don't think that either Red Bull or McLaren will start out the season having a number 1 or 2 driver, but my point was, Massa, as with now, i believe, mentally, Webber and Button are number 2 drivers to their team mates.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I don't think that either Red Bull or McLaren will start out the season having a number 1 or 2 driver, but my point was, Massa, as with now, i believe, mentally, Webber and Button are number 2 drivers to their team mates.

I think the reality of what you are saying.... and one accepted and understood by all but the fanbois of the lesser driver:

Webber is not as good as Vettel
Massa is not as good as Alonso
Button is not as good (as a total package) as Hamilton.

Button to Hamilton is probably the closest matched of the three teams. Button was and is let down by qualifying, but more evenly matched on racecraft and in my opinion better at driving to a strategy that requires a bit of restraint (ie maximising tyres in not ideal conditions.) Notwithstanding, Hamilton is the quicker albeit less consistent of the pair.

Hamilton's weakness is not knowing when to tame the natural aggression. The agression is part of what makes Hamilton as good a driver as he is, but as we have seen he is prone to overdo it and come unstuck when a bit of patience was needed. He also relies on being told what to do much of the time rather than it coming naturally.

Often with Lewis we seem to hear 'Now these tyres are shot what shall I do? Button on the other hand is often the one making the decisions for himself often saying when he will be stopping or not stopping.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I don't think that either Red Bull or McLaren will start out the season having a number 1 or 2 driver, but my point was, Massa, as with now, i believe, mentally, Webber and Button are number 2 drivers to their team mates.

Yes, in Massa's case that's clear. But for all, we should wait for next season when the car will be different, the tyres and so on... same old story.

Let the season begin !

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I asked, not to be a pedant, but was just curious where it came from (as the other user was), so I can have a full read.

Maybe we can mature the discussion a little?

It was only a joke. Is it right to call someone a pedant and then not expect someone to respond to that?

To talk about the original intention of the thread then, from what I've seen Alonso left it in Ferrari's hands and they messed up royally. However where was the Alonso who thinks on his feet and makes decisions for the team in the car? We saw none of that. It was a rather woeful performance.