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Old 10 Apr 2008, 21:02 (Ref:2174842)   #51
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If you choke off the restrictors, the petrol cars are screwed. They need a good-sized opening, otherwise their higher revs are useless, and they WILL be dusted EVERY time by the diesels.

I'd definitely prefer chopping off those raised noses.

Franly though, this lap time "limit" is stupid. Sheesh, first off, I thought we were trying to promote evolution of the cars. On top of that, a 2000lb prototype topping out at 215-220mph at Le Mans kind of pales in comparison to a 3400lb tin-top whistling into a turn at 210mph. And Indycars average 212-225mph at the larger tracks they visit, while the ACO is seemingly concerned with average speeds of a mere 150mph (dudes, prototypes crossed that threshold in 1971, can we please move on?). If we're going to do this cycle thing, how about setting the initial regs to where the prototypes start out around 3:35, but then let them progress until times drop down to 3:15 or so (this would be on par with lap speeds that have been acceptable for F1 cars at Monza and Hockenheim within the last decade).
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Old 10 Apr 2008, 21:25 (Ref:2174857)   #52
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Originally Posted by Purist
(dudes, prototypes crossed that threshold in 1971, can we please move on?).
Oh that is a good one.


But I did love watching the CanAM races at Road America back then . . .
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Old 10 Apr 2008, 21:42 (Ref:2174867)   #53
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Originally Posted by Purist
If you choke off the restrictors, the petrol cars are screwed. They need a good-sized opening, otherwise their higher revs are useless, and they WILL be dusted EVERY time by the diesels.

I'd definitely prefer chopping off those raised noses.

Franly though, this lap time "limit" is stupid. Sheesh, first off, I thought we were trying to promote evolution of the cars. On top of that, a 2000lb prototype topping out at 215-220mph at Le Mans kind of pales in comparison to a 3400lb tin-top whistling into a turn at 210mph. And Indycars average 212-225mph at the larger tracks they visit, while the ACO is seemingly concerned with average speeds of a mere 150mph (dudes, prototypes crossed that threshold in 1971, can we please move on?). If we're going to do this cycle thing, how about setting the initial regs to where the prototypes start out around 3:35, but then let them progress until times drop down to 3:15 or so (this would be on par with lap speeds that have been acceptable for F1 cars at Monza and Hockenheim within the last decade).
Frankly, who puts this show on? The ACO! Which in the U.S. would look something like IMSA being the Sport arm of AAA (Automobile Assoc. of America). With one of the main tenants being safety! The concern for safety while encompassing the participants is also for, and I believe mainly, the spectators. I myself prefer to see Sports Car racing in the setting of natural terrain road courses and not some mega confined autodrome. Some may not like it, but it is a valid concern on the part of the ACO.

L.P.
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Old 10 Apr 2008, 22:17 (Ref:2174889)   #54
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3:15 would be way to fast. You have to remember that a faster car also calls for much faster reaction times by the drivers. And drivers have been known to complain about cars going too fast for them.
After the WM (I believe it was?) crossed the magical 400kph line in 1989, they added the chicanes at Mulsanne. So the ACO may well put in a major change on the track instead of restricting the cars too much. Should be called the Audi corner or something then
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Old 10 Apr 2008, 22:33 (Ref:2174897)   #55
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Do you know F1 banned total pit control of the car? They could optimise the thing to do the same lap time, every time.
Why not do that, and have full size R/C racing?

They butchered Mulsanne straight because a WM happily tripped down there at 400kph. That comes in over 250MPH in old money. It was taped up, in qualifying. It fried the engine, but they did it.

A full lap around a ROAD course at over 150MPH? Sheesh.

OK fella, you're so damn hot, YOU do it.
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Old 10 Apr 2008, 22:52 (Ref:2174907)   #56
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OK fella, you're so damn hot, YOU do it.
Huh? I'm really cool man
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Old 10 Apr 2008, 23:20 (Ref:2174915)   #57
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First, I wasn't making a commentary on road courses versus ovals. My point was that, physics-wise, you can certainly find things going on in top-tier motorsports FAR more questionable than letting LMP1s lap Le Mans under 3:30 (~145mph average).

Alright, the 2001 German GP pole was 1:38.117 (155.533mph). The 2002 Italian GP pole was 1:20.264 (161.423mph). The 1985 British GP pole was 1:05.591 (160.925mph).

Fifteen seconds over the entire lap at Le Mans is NOT going to translate to a massive increase in speed at any given point on the track. So the reaction time thing shouldn't be a problem. BTW, 3:15 translates to 156.166mph average.

I have to go now, but will finish my comments later.
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 01:16 (Ref:2174937)   #58
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ACO like anybody tries to set rules, engineers are employed to find "errors" in those rules and exploit them.

They are trying to make the futile argument for "cost containment" to help the "little guy".

Less we remind them, these are not club racers putting their houses in hock so they can build prototypes, far from it. The ACO shouldn't be looking to save Martin Short a few pennies.

I totally agree with Tim, its pointless to have line in the sand, this is automobile racing, unless you totally restrict things like NASCAR has done and even that isn't CHEAP, so STOP with the NONSENSE.
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 01:37 (Ref:2174942)   #59
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i'm ambivalent about the proposed rules being dropped, but i think that the ACO's suggestions for preventing lap times from increasing are pretty poorly thought out. the simplest solution would be to just drop LMP1 engine rules altogether and just run LMP2 engine rules. add a new category for prototype diesels, and then let them go. the reduced power would ensure they'd be unable to do the lap times around le mans, while require no expensive time be spent in wind tunnels, and wouldn't affect the current rules for chassis (which would be good as the current rules allow for cars which are pretty great when it comes to being able to race each other). audi are apparently going to build a new car for 2009 anyway, so this wouldn't hurt them in the slightest. it would be an issue for peugeot, but they would be able to come up with a new engine pretty quickly, and i'm sure the smaller, lighter motor would be great from a handling standpoint.

plus, a single prototype class would bring those pesky porsches up into the big class, so the endless bickering about LMP1 rules being biased to diesels would be gone. you'd have all the factories in the same prototype class by default, and the quality of competition would improve as a result...
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 02:52 (Ref:2174957)   #60
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Diffuser, I thought I'd give you a few more historical notes. The fastest Le Mans 24, as well as the fastest pole and fastest lap (by time) were set in 1971. The race average was 138.089mph. The fastest lap was a 3:18.4 (151.857mph), and pole was a 3:13.9 (155.381mph). I'll also mention Spa-Francorchamps. In 1971, the WSC Spa 1000km was run at an average speed of 154.759mph. In 1973, the pole was a 3:12.7 (163.672mph).

It's not just outright speed though, what you're likely to see now in terms of the change in pace of cars from year to year is much smaller than what used to be the case. The configuration of Le Mans used from 1968-71 saw the pole drop from 3:35.4 to 3:13.9 and fastest lap drop from 3:38.1 to 3:18.4; however, the most dramatic has to be pole at the Nurburgring. In 1969, pole was 8:00.2 and the following year it was 7:43.3 (Targa Florio is a course where it would be just about impossible to get a consistent, reliable reading on outright pace).

I will say this much to Tim. I would love to have a shot behind the wheel of one of those prototype machines, but there's almost no way in Hades that that will happen. I may be great at memorizing circuits on simulations, but that doesn't change the fact that I cannot pass the eye exam to get a driver's license for the street; kind of ironic then that auto racing is my favorite sport.

Last edited by Purist; 11 Apr 2008 at 02:55.
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 03:30 (Ref:2174963)   #61
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Sorry purist, but you've got a big hole in your logic.
All those times you've been posting are on old circuits with long straights, configurations that are nowhere near what we have today. If you went 10 seconds or something faster at the old LeMans circuit, it was almost all due to top speed on the mulsanne. That's mostly the case at the old Nurburgring, old Spa etc. tracks with very very long straights. Your fastest lap at LeMans can never be reached on todays circuit configuration, end of argument.
Today, if you went ten seconds faster (I will not go and calculate some average speeds, sorry) at LeMans, it will NOT be because of surpreme top speed. It will be because the car accelerates faster, brakes better/later and goes quicker through the corners. Having to brake 50 metres later, accelerate from 0 to 100 in 2 seconds less and go 20 kph quicker through a corner is a HUGE thing for a racing driver who is already stretched to his limits. It's all split second decisions for those guys, and if they have to react even half a second faster than before, it will put a big strain on them over the course of a race. Why do you think teams went from 2 to 3 drivers? Todays cars have way better handling than cars 20 years ago. But the drivers have to react much faster too, meaning the overall difficulty of a race is not lessening.
The cars may be able to go 3:15 at LeMans in a few years, but the drivers most certainly won't.

(oh and by the way, the fastest lap at the old Nurburgring is 6:11.13, set in 1983 by Stefan Bellof. First time anybody went over 200 kph in average speed. I know my history, thanks
Oh and incidentaly at that same race, this other guy named Jochen Mass gave an interview stating that the Porsche 956 was so fast overall it was difficult to react quick enough. He said he hoped the governing body would make the cars slower.)

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Old 11 Apr 2008, 08:32 (Ref:2175061)   #62
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I don't agree with new ACO's rules. I think P1 and P2 must be the highes expression of the car technology, at the same way of the formula 1. Different rules, but same performance and specifications between P1 and formula 1.
In the 70s, Sport cars were faster than their contemporary formula 1 (Porsche 917K was 16 second faster tha a f1 at Spa, the same for the Matra MS 670 V12 and Ferrari 312PB). There was a real competition between these different categories, but it was too much spectacular. I would see P1 to be as fast in Le Mans as the Group C cars were in their golden era!
I would see a greaftul competition in Le Mans, with Porsche, Audi, Peugeot, Toyota, BMW and Maserati in the top class (P1).
It's stupid for me to justify performance reduction with safety increasing.
We wanna see races, no walks around the track.
P1 must be real f1 rivals. Stop. No way to change the rules. This must be the aim of the ACO.
What do you think about this reasoning? Am I right or wrong?
My god! We wanna see the noise and the smell of the speed. Not to pick up flowers around the track!
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 09:05 (Ref:2175080)   #63
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I'm with you Dario!
It's this Nanny syndrome that drives me nuts!
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 09:38 (Ref:2175098)   #64
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Me too - the 908 was only a few seconds slower than F1 at Barcelona, if they released the rules a bit they could be quicker and that would rattle a few cages and create a few headlines.
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 11:01 (Ref:2175137)   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purist
Diffuser, I thought I'd give you a few more historical notes. The fastest Le Mans 24, as well as the fastest pole and fastest lap (by time) were set in 1971. The race average was 138.089mph. The fastest lap was a 3:18.4 (151.857mph), and pole was a 3:13.9 (155.381mph). I'll also mention Spa-Francorchamps. In 1971, the WSC Spa 1000km was run at an average speed of 154.759mph. In 1973, the pole was a 3:12.7 (163.672mph).

It's not just outright speed though, what you're likely to see now in terms of the change in pace of cars from year to year is much smaller than what used to be the case. The configuration of Le Mans used from 1968-71 saw the pole drop from 3:35.4 to 3:13.9 and fastest lap drop from 3:38.1 to 3:18.4; however, the most dramatic has to be pole at the Nurburgring. In 1969, pole was 8:00.2 and the following year it was 7:43.3 (Targa Florio is a course where it would be just about impossible to get a consistent, reliable reading on outright pace).

I will say this much to Tim. I would love to have a shot behind the wheel of one of those prototype machines, but there's almost no way in Hades that that will happen. I may be great at memorizing circuits on simulations, but that doesn't change the fact that I cannot pass the eye exam to get a driver's license for the street; kind of ironic then that auto racing is my favorite sport.
Interesting about the "The Northern Loop" is that the Corvette Z06, Skyl err Nissan GT-R, BMW V8 powered M3 and almost ready for production ZR-1 Vette lap that place much faster than '69 pole speed...
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 11:05 (Ref:2175140)   #66
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Originally Posted by diffuser
Sorry purist, but you've got a big hole in your logic.
All those times you've been posting are on old circuits with long straights, configurations that are nowhere near what we have today. If you went 10 seconds or something faster at the old LeMans circuit, it was almost all due to top speed on the mulsanne. That's mostly the case at the old Nurburgring, old Spa etc. tracks with very very long straights. Your fastest lap at LeMans can never be reached on todays circuit configuration, end of argument.
Today, if you went ten seconds faster (I will not go and calculate some average speeds, sorry) at LeMans, it will NOT be because of surpreme top speed. It will be because the car accelerates faster, brakes better/later and goes quicker through the corners. Having to brake 50 metres later, accelerate from 0 to 100 in 2 seconds less and go 20 kph quicker through a corner is a HUGE thing for a racing driver who is already stretched to his limits. It's all split second decisions for those guys, and if they have to react even half a second faster than before, it will put a big strain on them over the course of a race. Why do you think teams went from 2 to 3 drivers? Todays cars have way better handling than cars 20 years ago. But the drivers have to react much faster too, meaning the overall difficulty of a race is not lessening.
The cars may be able to go 3:15 at LeMans in a few years, but the drivers most certainly won't.

(oh and by the way, the fastest lap at the old Nurburgring is 6:11.13, set in 1983 by Stefan Bellof. First time anybody went over 200 kph in average speed. I know my history, thanks
Oh and incidentaly at that same race, this other guy named Jochen Mass gave an interview stating that the Porsche 956 was so fast overall it was difficult to react quick enough. He said he hoped the governing body would make the cars slower.)
Wondering if anybody has any video, because driving the track in GT4, ummm WHERE DO YOU PASS somebody in a super wide Group C car????

I can think of the many hard braking areas of course but there isn't much room for side by side racing, no wonder they don't run the track anymore, though it would be interesting if the FIA GT series ran there....
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 11:30 (Ref:2175154)   #67
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Some passing in that one (Bellof's lap record):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMP5H0LXquM

That is in qualifying however...

There used to be the whole 1983 1000km race highlights video on youtube, but I can't find it anymore....
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 13:09 (Ref:2175247)   #68
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Originally Posted by Dario911
I don't agree with new ACO's rules. I think P1 and P2 must be the highes expression of the car technology, at the same way of the formula 1. Different rules, but same performance and specifications between P1 and formula 1.
In the 70s, Sport cars were faster than their contemporary formula 1 (Porsche 917K was 16 second faster tha a f1 at Spa, the same for the Matra MS 670 V12 and Ferrari 312PB). There was a real competition between these different categories, but it was too much spectacular. I would see P1 to be as fast in Le Mans as the Group C cars were in their golden era!
I would see a greaftul competition in Le Mans, with Porsche, Audi, Peugeot, Toyota, BMW and Maserati in the top class (P1).
It's stupid for me to justify performance reduction with safety increasing.
We wanna see races, no walks around the track.
P1 must be real f1 rivals. Stop. No way to change the rules. This must be the aim of the ACO.
What do you think about this reasoning? Am I right or wrong?
My god! We wanna see the noise and the smell of the speed. Not to pick up flowers around the track!
Absolutely right. One of the main differences today with F1 is the weight, LMP1 is heavier (about 500kg) but the power and speed are there. For the rest I think without these EVO rules the LMPs will head on the right direction.
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 13:33 (Ref:2175270)   #69
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Originally Posted by Dario911
P1 must be real f1 rivals. Stop. No way to change the rules. This must be the aim of the ACO.
Well... I wouldn't mind if Protos were 10 seconds slower than F1 and be real race cars which will give us exiting races with lots of overtaking and hard battles. Plus, F1 cars have all those aero widgets hanging off of them they look downright ridiculous these days. Wouldn't want to see that on a Prototype.
Emanuelle Pirro once said that F1 is for boys and sportscars is for men. Let's keep 'em fast yes, but not at the cost of good racing.
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 13:39 (Ref:2175276)   #70
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Those "aero widgets" will disappear next season.
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 13:52 (Ref:2175282)   #71
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Emanuelle Pirro once said that F1 is for boys and sportscars is for men.
I bet after his F1 career ended...

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Those "aero widgets" will disappear next season.
You never know about FIA. It has been proposed, yes.
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 13:53 (Ref:2175283)   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dario911
I would see P1 to be as fast in Le Mans as the Group C cars were in their golden era!
Hard to find qualifying times from teh interweb (e.g. here only best practice time have been listed) but I once tried to compare Group C era times to F1 times from same tracks and years, and basicly there was always 10-15 secs gap. So in this correlecation LMPs have not become slower when keeping F1 speed in mind. Barcelona:

F1 GP '07: Felipe Massa 1:20.597 (Q2)
LAMY Pedro/SARRAZIN Stephane 1:31.875 (qual)
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 14:07 (Ref:2175295)   #73
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In addition to previous post, I correct that to 5-15 secs gap then:

e.g.

Spa 1989:

http://wsrp.ic.cz/wsc1989.html#7
http://f1-facts.com/results/race/1989/57/classification

Hermanos Rodriguez 1989:

http://wsrp.ic.cz/wsc1989.html#8
http://f1-facts.com/results/race/1989/75/classification

But hard to judge when the GrC times are not qual times.

.

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Old 11 Apr 2008, 14:15 (Ref:2175300)   #74
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You can find nearly all Group C qualy times here http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo_wcm.html
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Old 11 Apr 2008, 15:00 (Ref:2175324)   #75
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I bet after his F1 career ended...


You never know about FIA. It has been proposed, yes.
I was hoping they would disappear along with Max!
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