[BTCC] Plato's comments in Autosport

[Craner Curves]

Here's a thought. Think back to two of the best seasons in recent years, namely 2007 and 2009. What did they have in common? No equivalency issues. 08 we had the Seat TDis, 10 we had the LPG Fords and before that we had the constant bickering between the S2000 Seats and the BTC Spec teams.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

As expected the turbo cars have been pegged back to 1.7 bars for Thruxton. Good news.

[steve_r]

Probably is good news. I guess there will always have to be tweeks to keep things level, as we have seen in previous seasons.

However, if Plato had not finished all 3 races in Donnington around the place he qualified, he would probably be leading the championship by some margin in his "slow" NA car.

I suppose the unique nature of Brands Indy hid the turbo advantage to some extent.

[auroan]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

As expected the turbo cars have been pegged back to 1.7 bars for Thruxton. Good news.

Not quite. They been pegged bag by 0.1 bar from their individual peak pressure.

Not all cars run up to the full 1.8bar.

[VIVA GT]

Yes but...
To a certain extent, the tyres are becoming a limiting factor. They can't handle a full race distance with the power of the turbo engines. So, a bit like the current F1 season, there's a bit of a tortoise & hare situation here.
One thing's for sure, as long as there are differences allowed, there will be whingeing and whining from all sides when they consider that anyone else has an advantage, despite whatever equivalency factors are used.

[auroan]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Yes but...
To a certain extent, the tyres are becoming a limiting factor. They can't handle a full race distance with the power of the turbo engines.

Have you been watching the last 6 races ? Tyres seem fine to me. The only turbo car with issues was Andy Jordons at Brands. And he said both on car to pit radio and after the races he got punctures from either contact or curb riding.

[Sodemo]

I doubt .1 bar will make much difference. Take it down by .3 then maybe you might see some effect.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by auroan

Have you been watching the last 6 races ? Tyres seem fine to me. The only turbo car with issues was Andy Jordons at Brands. And he said both on car to pit radio and after the races he got punctures from either contact or curb riding.

Drivers themselves have been stating that they have to manage their tyres, and also their brakes, when running turbos.

The Civics are having to restrict their brake usage to ensure they last a full race distance, hence the reason that turbo cars have not disappeared into the distance when leading (usually).

Admittedly this might be a bit of 'mind-games', but as long as NA drivers are complaining about top end speed disadvantage, then turbo drivers can complain about brake and tyre disadvantages.

Why should any team that has fully, or partially, transferred to the new set of regulations be put at a disadvantage against teams running 2-3 year old cars, built to a previously used set of regulations for use in a championship run by a different governing body?

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

Touringcar needs to follow it's time. Yes you can race with 3.0L Saloons, but the fact is that the majority of the sold cars are smaller cars with smaller engines. Follow the market, follow the cars on the street, and that involves hatchbacks.

Exactly, let's see this list of best selling cars in the UK, 2010.

A and B segments:

1. Fiesta
4. Corsa
6. Polo
7. 207
9. Mini
12. Clio
17. 500
20. Jazz
21. i10
24. Yaris

C segment

2. Astra
3. Focus
5. Golf
13. 1 Series
14. A3
19. Mégane
23. 308
28. Civic

D segment:

8. 3 Series
11. Insignia
16. Mondeo
18. C Class
22. E Class
25. Passat
27. A4

Most of the bestselling big saloons are German. Makes from other countries sell mostly A, B and C segment cars. It's no surprise that many of them prefer C segment cars as racing cars to promote their brands.

[gregc]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Why should any team that has fully, or partially, transferred to the new set of regulations be put at a disadvantage against teams running 2-3 year old cars, built to a previously used set of regulations for use in a championship run by a different governing body?

They aren't being put at a disadvantage, they are having an advantage removed, as was always going to be the case. It has been stated by TOCA from day one that for 2011 and 2012 the turbo and S2000 cars would be equalised, with NGTC getting increased power from 2013 onwards.

The teams running S2000 NA machinery entered on the basis that they would be running on an equal footing this year, having been promised this by the organiser. The turbo cars are being pegged back in an attempt to restore equality. I don't see what the problem is...

[crmalcolm]

Yes, turbo does give a speed advantage, but it also brings a tyre/brake wear disadvantage. Every car will have strengths and weaknesses over other types, I feel that the turbo cars are having their advantages restricted, while still having to carry the disadvantage.

Comparing results so far, the NA cars had the upper hand at Brands, turbo at Donington. The next track obviously favours cars with higher top speed, will the NA cars have equalisation measures imposed at tracks such as Knockhill?

[Sodemo]

Yep, reducing their boost is fine, but as a sweetner, they should offer them a slightly lower weight limit, so say you can lose 10-20kg. Lets face it, where they excel is down the straights, and where they lose out, is in the corners. So peg them back a bit on the straights (lower boost) but give them a slight weight break (better in corners).

[Alfa Fan]

Why do they lose out in the corners? The restriction imposed seems entirely reasonable, although Thruxton will demonstrate whether they got it right.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Alfa Fan

Why do they lose out in the corners? The restriction imposed seems entirely reasonable, although Thruxton will demonstrate whether they got it right.

They lose out in corners because they have to carry more weight at the front of the car than an NA equivalent.

[S14GJC]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

They lose out in corners because they have to carry more weight at the front of the car than an NA equivalent.

For this year Dunlop have made a harder tyre compared to last year's tyre for the reason that the turbo cars are heavier. The NA cars have to use the same tyre so they loose out in having a harder compound as they don't work the tyre as hard over a race distant.

Thruxton should be very interesting to watch how this will pan out who looks after their tyres throughout the weekend.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by S14GJC

For this year Dunlop have made a harder tyre compared to last year's tyre for the reason that the turbo cars are heavier. The NA cars have to use the same tyre so they loose out in having a harder compound as they don't work the tyre as hard over a race distant.

Thruxton should be very interesting to watch how this will pan out who looks after their tyres throughout the weekend.

Which means BMW are further disadvantaged. They should provide a soft and hard compound.

[gregc]

According to Matt Neal on the Honda Racing facebook page, the Civics are going to have their boost restricted further than the other turbo cars.

I've got no problem with the overall reduction in boost for the NGTC engines, however it seems a bit unfair to single out one particular engine built to the same rules as everyone else because Neil Brown has done a good job...

[TerryD]

Be nice to see a Volvo Estate on the grid again(now that is a 'touring' car)

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by gregc

According to Matt Neal on the Honda Racing facebook page, the Civics are going to have their boost restricted further than the other turbo cars.

I've got no problem with the overall reduction in boost for the NGTC engines, however it seems a bit unfair to single out one particular engine built to the same rules as everyone else because Neil Brown has done a good job...

Alan Gow has commented that the reduction is no more or less for Honda than every other car. I can only conclude that the Hondas were running less boost than the other cars.

If this is the case, were the Hondas running less boost in order to meet a certain bhp limit?

[gregc]

Yep, just read Alan's comments. All a bit odd, given that Shedden got sent to the back for exceeding the 1.8 bar boost limit in race one at Donington.

Unless the team turned it down for the other races rather than risk that happening again, and then that's the level that TOCA have worked from for the boost reduction?

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by gregc

Yep, just read Alan's comments. All a bit odd, given that Shedden got sent to the back for exceeding the 1.8 bar boost limit in race one at Donington.

Although TOCA have said the reduction was based on the highest boost level used at Donington it was actually the highest boost level in qualifying.

The Civics ran with lower boost levels in qualifying compared to race trim, so their new limit is based on a lower starting point.

[crmalcolm]

With regards to the equalisation, the agreement was that the the fastest NA car will have equal performance to the fastest turbo.

Results have seen Ford, Honda and Vauxhall sharing honours amongst the turbos, whereas Plato has been head and shoulders above all the other NA cars.

The equalisation would therefore see that whichever turbo driver perfoms the best, Plato will automatically be given equal performance - surely this would be favouring one driver over others?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Although TOCA have said the reduction was based on the highest boost level used at Donington it was actually the highest boost level in qualifying.

The Civics ran with lower boost levels in qualifying compared to race trim, so their new limit is based on a lower starting point.

Not correct, sorry. TOCA announced it was the boost levels recorded by each car during qualifying and all 3 races (rounds four, five and six) at Donington. Here is the exact quote from their announcement;

"British Touring Car Championship organiser TOCA has today announced that following full analysis of technical data and taking into consideration other relevant results/information, the new maximum boost limit for all turbocharged cars in the series will be 0.1 bar lower than that recorded by each car on the TOCA Performance Monitoring Device (Logger) during qualifying and rounds four, five and six at Donington Park"

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

Not correct, sorry. TOCA announced it was the boost levels recorded by each car during qualifying and all 3 races (rounds four, five and six) at Donington.

I know what they said, but Honda will tell you they ran 1.7 bar in qualifying and more than 1.7 bar in race spec.

We know that the data logger on Shedden's car recorded 1.88 (i.e. over the previous 1.8 limit) in one of the races as he was DQ'd for that reason.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by redshoes

I know what they said, but Honda will tell you they ran 1.7 bar in qualifying and more than 1.7 bar in race spec.

We know that the data logger on Shedden's car recorded 1.88 (i.e. over the previous 1.8 limit) in one of the races as he was DQ'd for that reason.

Why would the organiser calculate a short illegal overboost into their numbers?

So your saying the organisers just lied when they put out the official notification to all the teams about how much boost they were all running during qualifying and all the races and what their new limit is, but instead you rather believe one team?! Fantastic conspiracy theory. Maybe you think Elvis is still alive?