A rant on to closed to club race meetings

[andy97]

There ARE several clubs that will allow 1 or 2 "taster" races a season without needing to register for the series, CSCC being one of them. You do need to join the club but £35-40 isn't too much of a hardship surely?

Clubs also need the registration money at the start of the money to provide some form of cash flow or "float" to cover the quieter off season. Clubs only make money by putting on race meetings; thes happen mostly in March to Oct & yet the clubs will have expendutres all through the year & need to pay for circuit hire probably for their first two meetings of the year at least in February.

That said, the reg fee for the Porsche series mentioned is over the top IMHO. A reg fee of £100 seems reasonable to me if you are going to do the majority of a season.

[IAN #51]

I've raced with the CSCC for a number of years Andy in Swinging sixties , Classic K , Future Classics and now with the RAFMSA who charge a 10th of what the CSCC do in terms of reg fees.

Can you explain to me what the registration fee covers

Trophies should be included in race entry fee as should admin costs
The series co-ordinators have been in my experience volunteers
There is no championship fee as these are series

So what does the 100 quid do on top of my membership I've already paid

Not singling CSCC out they are a great club but I've always wondered what the Reg fee pays for

Ian

[andy97]

The reg fees contribute to the income of the club to help pay for it to run. Simple as that really. All clubs have overheads - Rent/ mortgages, staff costs, insurance, IT, Utilities etc. The reg fee is just part of the income, without it, then the club would have to put up race entry fees markedly so as to be able to put money aside to cover the off season costs. Now, members can argue for a different financial model if they wish & I'm sure that the club would listen to any proposals. Other clubs have higher membership fees for eg, whereas CSCC splits it into a Membership fee (£39) & a reg fee (£99). Some clubs have much higher membership fees & much higher series registration fees!

PS. The RAFMSA can charge a 10th of what the CSCC do as a registration fee as they have no full time office & staff to run & may get a grant from the sports fund of the RAF to help them out.

[Alan Morgan]

I run the Historic FF2000 Association so have had some experience of this. We ask for a voluntary contribution of £50 from our members each year and the vast majority of drivers are happy to pay it. In return they get food and beer at every meeting for themselves and their helpers. £50 per driver does not cover this cost and I spend time getting individual sponsors to support our races to make up the shortfall. Most years we end up with a small surplus and this has paid for an EZ-Up, generator, tables etc.

Our championship is run by the HSCC and competing drivers do need to be members of the club (£150). If a driver wants do do a single race then the HSCC offer a Day Membership for something like £20 and we would not ask them to pay anything to our association, even though they would be more than welcome to join us for food and drink at our paddock social gathering. I think that's a pretty fair deal for anyone who is unwilling or unable to take in a full season.

[Mike Bell]

Sounds a good deal to me Alan, and hoping to take advantage of it at some point during 2012! Getting back to HSCC, as you say membership is £150 and there are no registration fees for their own series, so I could race in Guards, RoadSports, ByBox etc without extra fees. Day membership is £10 btw.

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by Alan Morgan

I run the Historic FF2000 Association so have had some experience of this. We ask for a voluntary contribution of £50 from our members each year and the vast majority of drivers are happy to pay it. In return they get food and beer at every meeting for themselves and their helpers. £50 per driver does not cover this cost and I spend time getting individual sponsors to support our races to make up the shortfall. Most years we end up with a small surplus and this has paid for an EZ-Up, generator, tables etc.

Our championship is run by the HSCC and competing drivers do need to be members of the club (£150). If a driver wants do do a single race then the HSCC offer a Day Membership for something like £20 and we would not ask them to pay anything to our association, even though they would be more than welcome to join us for food and drink at our paddock social gathering. I think that's a pretty fair deal for anyone who is unwilling or unable to take in a full season.

Perfect! If I can get my ass in gear and get a FF2000 sorted out I could meet up and run with you guys in 'The Park' this summer. (case in point)

[MartinSmith]

Sorry I have not really had a chance to look at this.

People know too well my views on certain aspects of the "establishment" talk of getting rid of timekeepers and driving down costs etc .....I have my views on this.

We (360) were mentioned as not charging a reg fee, well, we do if Im honest, but its included in your entry fee, it is as far as I am concerned a fairer way of "taxing" you as such, (but then again I dont believe in the tax disc system either ...so perhaps thats why we dont have a reg fee...) but before I stand up all proud and high above others...you have to count up a few things. The 360 is an annual event, it is a one off as such and although this year it will now be over two days, it is not a championship or a series, its a fun motorsport event (remember them everyone?...they do exist still)

Yes we are considering running other events but they will be based on endurance type events which is not everyones cup of tea (though why god only knows because...if you are moaning about reg fees and what its costs to go racing, minute for minute you cannot beat endurance!) But if we do more events they will not carry a registration fee.

I have said for a long time that the world of Motorsport needs to change, as has been quoted in this thread, long gone are the days of 12 rounds etc, people want choice and they have choice, it is because the amount of choice elsewhere in our lives that people are now expecting it in Motorsport and why not? The Balance is that clubs and circuits and organisers need to sit down and share out. Championship races are different, if you are entering them then you cannot expect to just turn up....and upset apple carts, but we moan about the lack of people on grids...so if someone does want to turn up...what is the organiser to do? you CANNOT have it both ways people. If you want commitment from people to turn up to events then a reg fee may lock them in...if you want choice then don't complain when the grid is not full and "no one showed" I know this is fringing on a different argument but its right what was said earlier...this is a red herring

The trouble is, that there are a lot of people who think you can make mney out of motorsport, well you can if your name is Bernie but most others dont and what is happening now is that there are too many people setting out very similiar stales ....and that needs to change but again that is ANOTHER argument....but ohhh sooo linked...you see with the continued creation of "series" comes competition between clubs to get and retain members and everyone wants you to race with them....so...to lock you in...you get a reg fee...simples..a new series for this...a new series for that...my car can run in this and in that....decisions decisions...see choice is good...but too much choice...you get swamped and no one will win. and the thing is...in oprder to create a series...you need CONTENT and in order to keep a series going you need to RETAIN CONTENT. how do I do that?...I lock you in with a reg fee and as everyone is doing it...why not?

The cost of organising an event is awesome, the cost of running a club is not seriously you can run a club from a desk in aspare room.... but it does depend on the club doesn't it?... We dont have a dinner/dance (unless you call me and John turning up late at the festive fry up a social gathering) but just to let you in on something there are REGULATIONS for them if you do have them....did you know that?... We dont have a newsletter because I dont have time to produce one and besides, if its relevant it will appear on the website or on here..why bother with post, why upset green-peace anymore than we have to...its bad enough as it is..."How DARE they race with fossil fuels!!!" ?
Admin?...well..we have one of the best Race Secretary in the business for the event but her fees come out of the entry (and remember she doesnt get paid...only her fees). We hire in help near the event on a ad hoc basis for the paperwork /banking etc ...but if we had more events we would have to consider more staff but again that would be factored into the entry fee. We have been compared to Easyjet....fine, so be it, we still won an award by the MSA (thank you all for your votes) and still manage to drive forward the event Thing is, if you want grass roots racing you have to take the rough with the smooth....dont think we are the dogs dangly's cause we dont have a reg fee and then moan at me when we accept an invitation class from a car you would call a hot rod...(a different argument again...but to get the point over and if everyone who said they wanted in came in...we wouldn't have had the problem would we)


I feel I must stress something to you though, the actual event, everything there on that day has to be there. it is NOT done for effect. (and please dont come in talking about teas and coffees and hospitality, im referring to the logistics) there is not ONE THING YOU CAN DO WITHOUT..... "Hope for the best.....but plan for the worse" and that is what any organiser does or should do so as rightfully pointed out earlier in this thread its nice to turn up and know that the people who you count on are there for you in the day so you have fun.

The cost of everything at the moment is under the microscope for so many...Fuel is one thing that soooo winds me up its unture...but that is because having come from that background I know the con that the government does with regards to it...perhapss it would be more effective if we all got off our backsides and got on the soap box about that ...just to put it into perspective...you are taxed on your income ...then the fuel is taxed before it comes out of the ground...then taxed again THEN you pay VAT on that TAX!!!! (thats the real thing to moan about!!!)

I do not beleive in Reg fees for our club and indeed think a fairer system (and that could work out more financially rewarding for the clubs) would be to charge a day rate scheme, with the option of a "Season Ticket" as per trains./football. The season ticket could be transferable...dont talk to me about the admin of that because THERE IS NONE...i know that add this fee to the entry fee and believe me it will NOT up markably at all...cut out pointless mags and make your website more interactive, do away with paperwork as onlibne brokers do etc...you do NOT need them you have e mail etc and stop hiding behind the fact that really...you just want to make sure your competitors dont go elsewhere.........see thats the difference.....we call em customers

[rogerwills]

I understood that if a race organiser was organised as a club and charges a membership fee, they are not subject to some of the bureaucracy of MSA or FIA registration or something similar. Hence this is how most race organisers are organised. Or did I misunderstand that?

It was something along the lines of being approved by the MSA as a race organiser. Then there is insurance required. Then regulations need to be written up, submitted and passed by the MSA.

All of these things cost money. A membership fee helps cover these. None of these are race specific where they a covered by race entry fees. Even if not a single entry is received, all this must be in place. An overhead.

Therefore, people are required to be a paid up club member to race with that organiser.

Perhaps I misunderstood.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

I understood that if a race organiser was organised as a club and charges a membership fee, they are not subject to some of the bureaucracy of MSA or FIA registration or something similar. Hence this is how most race organisers are organised. Or did I misunderstand that?

It was something along the lines of being approved by the MSA as a race organiser. Then there is insurance required. Then regulations need to be written up, submitted and passed by the MSA.

All of these things cost money. A membership fee helps cover these. None of these are race specific where they a covered by race entry fees. Even if not a single entry is received, all this must be in place. An overhead.

Therefore, people are required to be a paid up club member to race with that organiser.

Perhaps I misunderstood.

yes you have missunderstood but I forgive you because one day you WILL race at the 360!!

an ORGANISING club is the ONLY club that can put on an event (MSVR, HSCC,CSCC,360, MRC are all such clubs)

a series can be started by anyone though they NOW have to be registered with the MSA they still cannot ORGANISE (that is hold the permit for) an event they have to go through an organising club (unless they are one themselves)

If they are a championship the FIA then get involved

Insurance is (as I have said before) covered by the PERMIT fee paid to the MSA per event

[MartinSmith]

Incidently Roger...all the regs etc has to be done if you are a organising club or a series anyway...you have to have a set of regulations

[terence]

So,all we need to do is organise another five enduro's and call it a championship?

[midgetman]

>>>>Rather than get anti-establishment over minimal registration fees; I'd rather we discussed how organisers / events might levy a service charge on 'drivers having fun' to help marshalls; we tip taxi drivers, waitressers etc etc; these guys and gals put themselves out (and often at risk) just for us to have fun.

From what I can glean on other forums, the best thing we as drivers can do is to keep entering to give large grids, race hard and fair, and not drive onto each other. Simples!

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by midgetman

race....fair, and not drive onto each other.

So that rules out all one-make and spec. series for a kick-off....

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

So that rules out all one-make and spec. series for a kick-off....

silly

[Lancsbreaker]

Interesting comment about Welsh Sports Car and Saloon Championship in MN today - proposal to refund up to 50% of entry fees if grids rise to maximum sizes........I suppose effectively a sliding scale entry fee

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

silly

You might find it silly, and of course you are welcome to your view, but I don't view the constant banging, ramming, or nudging, and outright cheating on the technical specs in one make closed-wheel racing as being in the slightest bit a matter for cheap laughs; it should instead be a matter for condign punishment from RACMSA.

Isn't circuit racing meant to be a non-contact sport?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

You might find it silly, and of course you are welcome to your view, but I don't view the constant banging, ramming, or nudging, and outright cheating on the technical specs in one make closed-wheel racing as being in the slightest bit a matter for cheap laughs; it should instead be a matter for condign punishment from RACMSA.

Isn't circuit racing meant to be a non-contact sport?

Frankly, in the context of the thread your post was somewhat irrelevant, which is where the poster was coming from. The majority probably agree with you, but what has the current (or even the 70s/80s) one make/btcc contact element to do with the thread? Ans: nothing.


Please remain on topic.

Thanks.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Frankly, in the context of the thread your post was somewhat irrelevant, which is where the poster was coming from. The majority probably agree with you, but what has the current (or even the 70s/80s) one make/btcc contact element to do with the thread? Ans: nothing.
Please remain on topic.

Thanks.

Peter, you read my mind - I AM fairly transparent
I also meant to imply that a sweeping generalisation does not make it fact...

[johngee]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

I also meant to imply that a sweeping generalisation does not make it fact...

It does in here!

[historic racer]

Back on track with this one, as I posted in No 4 ,I contacted four clubs with the request to enter two of their races without any registration or membership fees etc, running as an invited entry not eligable for points or awards. Three came back with a yes ok, and the surcharge on entry fees varied from nothing to twenty pounds which I was more than happy with . The one that didn't was the Classic Sports Car Club, that was a firm NON, even to do one race they wanted the full £140 on top , clearly not viable. So they have lost two entry's for my driver in future classics and two entry's for myself in the modsaloon series, about £1000 net. Is this economic sense or the adoption of a supercilious attitude, was it put to the commitee, probably not in the time frame available. All I can say is that when the good times arrive you remember who helped you through the bad. This is my personal view, I am fully aware that clubs can do whatever they want and look forward to on topic comments, no personal attacks please ( you from Bromley ). Thank you.

[Peter Mallett]

Well I've so far paid membership fees to four organisers. I'll probably only manage one race with each. Frankly I don't see the issue. If you want to enter the event, pay the fee. Alternatively don't race. It's your loss.

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Well I've so far paid membership fees to four organisers. I'll probably only manage one race with each. Frankly I don't see the issue. If you want to enter the event, pay the fee. Alternatively don't race. It's your loss.

Well that is one view I suppose. However if there are a few events you can do and it comes down to the ones who insist or not on membership fees, you can easily see historic racers viewpoint. I suppose at the end of the day you do whatever you feel you want to do. In historic racers place the CSCC are loosing out, but there you go.

[Derwent Motorsp]

National B events are open to members of the organising club plus members of up to 45 clubs, or any number of registered championships, or members of clubs in up to 4 regional associations.

National A events are open to any holder of a valid competition licence.

There is absolutely no reason to ask for extra fees for drivers wishing to do races in series they are not registered to do other than greed on behalf of the organising club!. This does not happen in any other form of motorsport where extra entries are welcomed in say rallies or speed events at no additional cost.

[historic racer]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Well I've so far paid membership fees to four organisers. I'll probably only manage one race with each. Frankly I don't see the issue. If you want to enter the event, pay the fee. Alternatively don't race. It's your loss.

I don't quite know what to make of what you have come out with, what I would really like to say would get me banned. So polite answer is you must have more money than sense and or enjoy being taken for a ride. Most people look for value for money which generally is hard earned, mine is, but there is less of it at the moment hence my post.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by historic racer

The one that didn't was the Classic Sports Car Club, that was a firm NON, even to do one race they wanted the full £140 on top , clearly not viable. So they have lost two entry's for my driver in future classics and two entry's for myself in the modsaloon series, about £1000 net. Is this economic sense or the adoption of a supercilious attitude,

I think you know the answer to that but you have choices and like me and a few others I know you can vote with your wallet and play elsewhere. It's happened with other series, one of which that got too choosy when they really shouldn't have done and sadly paid the price.