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Old 13 Jul 2015, 20:54 (Ref:3558318)   #1251
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Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
There is this thing called Formula Ford, some of the F1 people may have heard of it. It gives great racing and for a tiny cost (compared to F1). If they want a blueprint for future F1, you could do a lot worse than start there.
Personally, I would love to see a low-downforce Formula One. However, fans and drivers already complain about the cars being not very demanding physically.
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Old 13 Jul 2015, 21:26 (Ref:3558330)   #1252
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I like a good Indycar race. Watched for years (good TV coverage allowing).

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If the F1 legislative muppets are looking for a blueprint, they could do way worse than look at the current Indycar car. They seem to be very good at running close to one another. Too close for some apparently!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119739
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i dont often watch Indy but yesterdays race had me glued to the TV.
[s]
It would tackle a lot of F1's problems. Freedom in regulations. No pay drivers. No fuel saving. No silly engine limit penalties. Good looking cars. No double points. No comedy tyre compound rules.

Oh wait ...
[/sarcasm]

I particularly like the fuel saving comparison. It is massive in Indycar, as it is in NASCAR and also, it a subtlety different way, WEC. It's only evil in F1 though.

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Old 13 Jul 2015, 23:12 (Ref:3558345)   #1253
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Personally, I would love to see a low-downforce Formula One. However, fans and drivers already complain about the cars being not very demanding physically.
Most of the current crop of F1 drivers are pretty well incapable of physicality anyway, they're built like 13 year old girls!

So I don't think that the physicality of driving one of these cars is that much of an issue.

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Old 13 Jul 2015, 23:42 (Ref:3558350)   #1254
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Most of the current crop of F1 drivers are pretty well incapable of physicality anyway, they're built like 13 year old girls!
Milwaukee, definitely showed the physicality involved and yet, the new Super License rules rank IndyCar 5th.

Bernie's always disliked AOWR, so much so he tried to prevent the FIA from issuing Super Licenses to CART drivers, who didn't have one.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119938
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 00:43 (Ref:3558354)   #1255
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Most of the current crop of F1 drivers are pretty well incapable of physicality anyway, they're built like 13 year old girls!

So I don't think that the physicality of driving one of these cars is that much of an issue.
It is just the complaint that Formula One drivers are 'built like 13 year old girls', because the current breed of cars allow them and that such should be changed.
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 01:19 (Ref:3558363)   #1256
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Milwaukee, definitely showed the physicality involved and yet, the new Super License rules rank IndyCar 5th.

Bernie's always disliked AOWR, so much so he tried to prevent the FIA from issuing Super Licenses to CART drivers, who didn't have one.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119938
Bernie's hatred of AOWR is because they maintain their independence from the FIA and they are a threat to his empire.
To rank Indycar as anything but second to F1 is just a complete joke!
Indylights should be right up there too!
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 01:22 (Ref:3558364)   #1257
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It is just the complaint that Formula One drivers are 'built like 13 year old girls', because the current breed of cars allow them and that such should be changed.
Immediately if not sooner!
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 12:50 (Ref:3558475)   #1258
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Immediately if not sooner!
However, if Formula One will have to be more demanding physically, it is impossible to have low-downforce configuration. It is either one or the other.
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 13:40 (Ref:3558496)   #1259
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However, if Formula One will have to be more demanding physically, it is impossible to have low-downforce configuration. It is either one or the other.
But are we talking high G speeds with high aero, or are we talking about drivers struggling with a low downforce car, because both will "tire" and test a driver, but in a different way.
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 13:50 (Ref:3558499)   #1260
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There is this thing called Formula Ford, some of the F1 people may have heard of it. It gives great racing and for a tiny cost (compared to F1). If they want a blueprint for future F1, you could do a lot worse than start there.
It is a curious thing but the slower the class (as a general rule) the better the racing. Formula V which is slower again is edge of the seat stuff as well. It is a function of time over distance covered, the quicker the cars the harder it is to actually race rather than just follow. This has been discussed before but the "experts" don't get it.
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 14:53 (Ref:3558519)   #1261
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but is not the different talent and experience levels in the lower formulas also a factor in those series providing 'better' racing?
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 15:10 (Ref:3558521)   #1262
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But are we talking high G speeds with high aero, or are we talking about drivers struggling with a low downforce car, because both will "tire" and test a driver, but in a different way.
A car that is all over the place, will indeed tire a driver. But one cannot deny the impact of huge lateral forces on the human body.

Having said that, with powerful engines Formula One is in need of a certain amount of downforce. Without it the cars would simply be uncontrollable. From a normative point of view downforce is also desirable or even a necessity. Without downforce lap times improve when a car is in the wake of another. Consequently, cars naturally close up and a slower car could thus easily pass a faster one.
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 16:18 (Ref:3558538)   #1263
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I find this discussion about drivers body shapes and sizes and "physicality" funny. Given the duration of the races and the G-loads, I expect they are all quite fit. I think I have read the phrase "wanting the cars to be more physical to drive". What exactly does that mean? Do you want it to be physically harder to turn the wheel or push the pedal or what?

My definition is that it should be harder to turn a fast lap. However I expect that to be a mostly mental exercise and less physical. However it might require more "motion" of the body to do so (more steering corrections than if you are on a rail and holding a smooth line).

As to all of the talk about what I generally view as "retro" or "vintage" style requests for what F1 should be like, I also just have a hard time getting that "from the perspective of creating a top tier series". I love vintage racing and other series, but it can never be the future.

It seems the wish list is...

* Manual transmissions
* Manual clutches
* Small or no wings
* large tires
* No driver aids
* No electronics
* No communications with the pits
* Large "manly" drivers
* Large and loud internal combustion engines.

If I was a better artist I would create an F1 version of Rat Fink as that is what I think some are asking for!!!




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Old 14 Jul 2015, 16:23 (Ref:3558540)   #1264
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but is not the different talent and experience levels in the lower formulas also a factor in those series providing 'better' racing?
No, it is time over distance.
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 17:13 (Ref:3558549)   #1265
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I love vintage racing and other series, but it can never be the future.
Someday we will see that it is all about degree; the autonomous car is here, and it is only a matter of time before the driver is in fact merely a passenger. It's inevitable that the day will come when motorsport will have to take a back seat to passenger car technology in order for it to be anything resembling a "driver's series". If automatic transmissions were as light and as reliable as (semi-)manual boxes, should they be allowed in F1? They are proving to be the faster alternative in passenger cars, so should this be mirrored within any series that purports to represent the pinnacle of technology?

Mr. Casto, I'm totally not arguing with you whatsoever; merely raising a point (that just happened to strike me when I saw your quote) that the line will inevitably have to be drawn, so does it really matter where, as long as the racing is good?
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 17:21 (Ref:3558550)   #1266
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At some point motorsports will be so different that we will not be able to recognize it when compared to today. I absolutely agree with that. I also agree with most if not all of your other points.

I do think that "good racing" is the generally the core from a fan perspective, but I also think F1 is having an identify crisis. It has not always been about "technology" (but that has always been a strong component). It has been (or been perceived to be) the top of the heap. It has to stand out from the others and IMHO, creating a vintage series is not the answer.

Now, I do think it would be interesting to create some type of vintage series in which you create new cars that use limited technology, but I just have a hard time saying that will every be F1.

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Old 14 Jul 2015, 18:12 (Ref:3558566)   #1267
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I'd just be happy with single element wings, and an H-pattern gearshifter, so you know, they can miss a gear every once in a while.
But apparently making things a little harder for the drivers is just old fashioned wishful thinking that has no place in F1.
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 19:10 (Ref:3558580)   #1268
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I'd just be happy with single element wings, and an H-pattern gearshifter, so you know, they can miss a gear every once in a while.
Hear, hear!

No matter how many driver's aids you throw at a car, seems a traditional gearshift would go a long way to counter their advantages. Maybe an analog-ish looking (or at least no colored LED's) tachometer as well, so no "optimum shift point" nonsense. How many times did we hear the excuse back in the day about a notchy shifter or some such thing? And who cares if it was legit or if they just missed shifts? It's an unpredictable performance variable. God bless unpredictable performance variables.
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 20:32 (Ref:3558603)   #1269
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You guys are killing me! Rat Fink I am telling you . Vintage F1 (Quick, I need to trademark "V1")

Seriously, I am all for making the cars less easy to drive. IMHO we just need more creativity than reverting to 1970s tech (i.e. manual H pattern gears) to do that. I respect everyone's opinions, but I can joke about this as it is such a bad idea it will never happen.

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Old 14 Jul 2015, 21:05 (Ref:3558615)   #1270
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If only F1 drivers were as fit as Indycar drivers.
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 21:53 (Ref:3558626)   #1271
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Or drivers from the '70s.
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 22:49 (Ref:3558635)   #1272
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You guys are killing me! Rat Fink I am telling you . Vintage F1 (Quick, I need to trademark "V1")

Seriously, I am all for making the cars less easy to drive. IMHO we just need more creativity than reverting to 1970s tech (i.e. manual H pattern gears) to do that. I respect everyone's opinions, but I can joke about this as it is such a bad idea it will never happen.

Richard
Rat Fink has nothing on Bat Fink, Bat Fink has wings like a shield of steel.
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Old 14 Jul 2015, 22:58 (Ref:3558636)   #1273
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Someday we will see that it is all about degree; the autonomous car is here, and it is only a matter of time before the driver is in fact merely a passenger. It's inevitable that the day will come when motorsport will have to take a back seat to passenger car technology in order for it to be anything resembling a "driver's series". If automatic transmissions were as light and as reliable as (semi-)manual boxes, should they be allowed in F1? They are proving to be the faster alternative in passenger cars, so should this be mirrored within any series that purports to represent the pinnacle of technology?

Mr. Casto, I'm totally not arguing with you whatsoever; merely raising a point (that just happened to strike me when I saw your quote) that the line will inevitably have to be drawn, so does it really matter where, as long as the racing is good?
F1's never been about road car relevance, though some of F1's technology has ended up in the road car.

Things will continue as they are until the FIA, or whoever is in charge in the future, decides there's no point in racing cars with an internal combustion engine.
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Old 15 Jul 2015, 01:23 (Ref:3558662)   #1274
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If only F1 drivers were as fit as Indycar drivers.
LOL.... You are not allowed to die.....
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Old 15 Jul 2015, 14:07 (Ref:3558768)   #1275
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I find this discussion about drivers body shapes and sizes and "physicality" funny. Given the duration of the races and the G-loads, I expect they are all quite fit. I think I have read the phrase "wanting the cars to be more physical to drive". What exactly does that mean? Do you want it to be physically harder to turn the wheel or push the pedal or what?

My definition is that it should be harder to turn a fast lap. However I expect that to be a mostly mental exercise and less physical. However it might require more "motion" of the body to do so (more steering corrections than if you are on a rail and holding a smooth line).
Formula One is more than just qualifying, in which it is indeed about doing one lap as fast as possible. Doing qualifying laps was probably only physically exhausting during the eighties, when cars qualifying components, true qualifying set-ups and engine power twice as much as their weight.
However, the race used to exhaust drivers severely. It is said this is no longer the case. The drivers' fitness seems to better than actually necessary. And that is exactly why some complain: they consider Formula One drivers as athletes and there want to see faster cars, exhausting drivers to the extreme.

Do not get me wrong: I think making Formula One continuously faster is a dead end. Sooner or later the cars simply become too fast for the human body to bear the forces. Safety and health mandate a limit to be set. And as soon as such a limit is set, it will become easier for other - feeder - series to get by. That is the very reason why GP2 is no longer that much slower than Formula One.
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