History of a Lola T492 Sports 2000 chassis?

[911thillclimber]

The plot so far then is (9 Dec 08)

TD had 3 Skodas using 2 Lolas and (maybe) this Lola of mine is the third.

So:

Mr. X bought a T 490 from Lola Chassis # x in 1977.
Mr. X raced it for 2 years and sold it to TonyD for conversion to a 3rd Skoda Special.
Mr TD raced that special for ? years, and Harry Humberstone (might have) bought it from TD. Fibresport made a replica of Dr. Enderby's Ghia and John Scheneider/Tony Harman did some/all the work with the pink/black stripe/spoiler Ghia shell and the Lola with an 1800cc / big bhp cossie from an RS 200 no less.

The car did not race (or maybe raced once) in this form. Tony H told me it did not race but got stored in a Barn attic.(he thinks 'down south')

This is 1985/6/7

Then...Brian bought the car with KGhia shell as a roller off Harry Humberstone. Date unknown. It had the huge brakes as still on the car and the March F2 rear end.

The Lola/Ghia was bought by racer Mike in 2002 off Brian. The Kharmann Ghia shell was pink, but was painted white by Harry H. It had a Cossie engine/FT 200 box.
Mike added new T 492 shell/ rollcage and sold it to me in 2008 as a roller keeping the engine and re-built FT.

Graham.

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by driftwood

i will say Mike took the car from Brian all same area in kent

This is at least a credible story , but what we must surely all be waiting for with bated breath is the saga of how it got to Harry , and who built it in the first place .

I assume that we are all now agreed it is a T490/2 tub ? It's just that the more I look at it , the more it seems to look like B19-71-10 ....

[911thillclimber]

What's one of those? Sounds Chevron! The rear end is absolutly Lola T 490/492, the front top/bottom wishbones are 492.
You are just teasing me right?

Here is the car again:

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

It's just that the more I look at it , the more it seems to look like B19-71-10 ....

Clive, you are very naughty chap indeed!

Graham, take no notice he is trying to wind-up someone on another thread!

[911thillclimber]

Thank god for that!

[driftwood]

Clive i knew that you where a banker but i did not realise how big a banker you became!

what year did TD get the S2000 car racing as a skoda then 1981?
he used t290 car in 79 for sure and poss 80

[Clive Brown]

Ah ! The $64000 question .... Short of getting an answer either from TD himself or from one of his team ( and even then , memories are notoriously fallible ) , I think it will be a case of scrutinising period literature for pictures of the final Lola-based Skoda , and back tracking from there . For example , at the start of every new season , Wendy Wools used to put together a potted guide to the Championship for their customers and guests ; clearly , if , say , the 1983 publication has pictures of the car in its final iteration , it must have been racing in the 1982 season . Was there a date on the Czecho literature ; that clearly shows the car in its later form .

[911thillclimber]

Pictures have not copied over, but here is TD @ 1981 with this car. I think it is the earlier Lola, not the t 492/Hart 420R.
So I guess the T492 '3rd' car is 81 earliest?

At the bottom of this literature:
Prameny: repro Svět motorů 1980, 1982, foto J. Gerle

V britském seriálu závodů Super Saloons na konci sedmdesátých a počátkem osmdesátých let pořádně úřadovaly vozy stavěné na bázi Škoda 110 R, resp. Š 130 RS. Ve Světě motorů 1980 se o nich objevil malý článek v souvislosti s předveden?*m tohoto vozu na brněnském okruhu při GP Brno. Tehdy s n?*m David Auger zajel kolo průměrem 150 km/h. Jistě by to šlo o hodně v?*c. Nepodařilo se mi tenkrát poř?*dit fotografii a tak mám k dispozici jen jeden darovaný sn?*mek a podklady z př?*slušného Světa motorů.
Všichni, kdo použili škodovky pro př?*pravu vozů Super Saloons koncem sedmdesátých let, byli inspirován?* úspěšnou stavbou tohoto vozu Johnem Turnerem v roce 1974, kdy použil motor Chevrolet V8.
Vůz, který si tu ukazujeme, patřil stáji Tony Dickinsona a na koncepci se pod?*lel také mladý pilot David Auger. Tony Dickinson s n?*m suveréně vyhrál v roce 1981 seriál Wendy Wools 1000 Super Saloon. Od doby, kdy poprvé použil erko Turner, se ub?*rala stavba cestou č?*m dál větš?*ho odlehčován?* vozu, takže z původn?* škodovky nezůstalo kromě tvaru téměř nic. Přesněji kliky dveř?*, jeden stěrač a reflektory. Vše ostatn?* byl laminát. Vůz stavěli tři nadšenci po dobu sedmi měs?*ců. Vůz tvoř?* podvozkové d?*ly vozu Lola T492. Motor značky Hart 420 R je dvoulitr o výkonu 315 k při 10000 ot/min, převodovka pětistupňová Hewland. Předn?* kola jsou zavěšena na závěsech z Raltu formule 2, zadn?* z Marchu téže formule.

Vůz d?*ky této "formulové" konstrukci v laminátovém hávu váž?* suchý pouhých 535 kg a vysoký je pouhých 1080 mm. Hned v prvn?*ch závodech s n?*m Tony Dickinson zajel rekordn?* kola na okruz?*ch Castle Combe a Thruxton. Stáj jezdila s oficiáln?* podporou Škoda Great Britain Ltd.

Kromě tohoto vozu se na britských okruz?*ch pohybovaly dalš?* vozy stavěné na bázi siluety Š 110 R: Tony Sugden použ?*val přeplňovaný Ford BOX a Skot Doug Niven s Mickem Hillem zabudovali do skeletu sedmilitrový Chevrolet. Obrázky těchto vozů nemám k dispozici.



Prameny

[Clive Brown]

Without the benefit of having seen the pictures to which you refer in your latest posting , I'm having to make an educated (?) guess , but in my view , the pictures in the Czecho posting ( this is all beginning to sound a bit like ' Tinker , Tailor , Soldier , Spy ' ! ) are clearly not of the same iteration of a Dickinson SS ( relax , Dr. Lienau , that means Special Saloon ) Skoda-Hart as that shown in Steve W.'s Oulton Park picture shown most recently in posting #148 . Different rear wheels , different rear body section ( wheel arches and moulded-in vents above the waistline behind the rear side windows ) , and different front radiator apertures .

If it's OK with The Drifter , perhaps we should for the sake of clarity refer to the ex-Alec Poole / Chris Meek , FVC powered version as the first car , the car based on the ex-Cloud Engineering T290 ( which I believe to be that shown in Steve W.'s picture ) as the second car , and finally , that which it appears likely from the published evidence was based on a T490/2 chassis and shown in postings #97 , 140 , and 141 , as the third car .

It may well be that the second / third cars did not have an independent existence , but that in itself is far from implausible ; I know for a fact that there were only ever three genuine Group 2 Bevan Imps , but the second and third cars did not have an independent existence , because the second car was destroyed at Thruxton whilst the third was being built , and accordingly , the third car was completed using parts salvaged from the wreck of its immediate predecessor . This leads us in a full circle back to my jovial quip about B19-71-10 ....

[driftwood]

Clive where you ever a bar steward at Sussex uni or is the a recent addition to your CV?
re Skodas i agree
car 1 to be ex poole/meek FVC powered car
car 2 then based on a t290 pilbeam altered hart powered car
car 3 S2000 tubbed lola T490 ish hart powered

Re Bevan Imps in Gp2
I assume u allude to the cars that George built for Bill and NOT the other car that was in the same livery driven by a privateer ( name escape sme will look in my book later) i think this was based on the "spare" shell George had but not 1 of the cars Bill drove
the 3rd car in in Talbot museum in france i saw it as a wipper snapper in 75 before it went i beleiv the 1st car was sold to scandanavia
however George did have 1 or 2 other cars before the Gp2 cars started winning the BTCC every year from 70-72

[Clive Brown]

'Sfunny you should mention it , but I was indeed Mine Host at the Park Village bar on the campus at Falmer ....
The triple championship-winning Bevan Imp was sold to Les Nash , who campaigned it in the BTCC during the 1973 season , and if I recall correctly , took the class because the Bevan car itself suffered DNFs at ( I think) brands , Thruxton , and Ingliston . It was , though , re-liveried in a fetching shade of purple , with yellow wheel centres . Les's original 1 litre Special Saloon Anglia was called the Purple People Eater , after the eponymous record of the 1960s .

[911thillclimber]

I have just come off the telephone with Tony Dickinson.

What a great bloke, nice and straight forward and a mine of information. I thank him very much for helping me. (us?)

I hope I have scribbled all this down right as there is a lot of info and an nice touch at the end.

Firstly, a Lola T490/2 was used for the final Skoda.
It had a Hart engine which used the rear bulk head to hold the front of the engine (more later).

Come foreward a few years and Alan Humberstone did race the Karmann Ghia and smashed it hard at the paddock exit at Llydden circuit. Although Tony was not there, he was told Alan was lucky to get out of the damage which 'wrote the car off'. The damage was on the drivers side.

My tub has sustained damage on the rear driver's side. Since repaired.(scars very much still evident).

Lets go back to the Tony D era.

The Lola he used he thinks came from Mr Ted Colmans who had a transport business, and really ran a 'motorsport team' with Rag Doodle as the driver (I may have this wrong so don't yell at me) A Mr Brian Eaton was mentioned too.

I think Mr Colman was the original purchaser of the Lola. I can check this with Lola. Tony said the car had a chassis number HU...but couldn't recall the number.

We talked about the cars features to see if it was the tub used for Skoda # 3

The front end was Ralt and had modified top mounts for the rack control arms due to acute bump steer problems. My car has exactly what he described. The car then had the latest AP brakes, so my car has lost those for the giant Brembo's. The front wheels are exactly as Tony remembers along with the 6 pin drive centre locks.

The rear suspension was March F2 with inboard brakes. The rear wheels are exactly as Tony remembers them along with 3 pin drive etc. The radius rods were longer to stretch the wheelbase to meet the Saloon rules which pushed the driveshaft angles back a lot. I have been forced to do the same.

The drive shafts are as Tony remembers.

Now to the tub.

The tub had a full rollcage with the SKoda body, and the front mounting points were modified to carry the mounting plates. It is hard to be sure exactly where these plates were pop riveted, but I have a scatter of rivet holes in the 'right' place at the front. These hole/plates are not Lola (looking at Lola T492's on the net.)

To the rear bulk head.

Tony said the Hart needed a front engine mount (s) to allow the engine to hang on the b'head. He said there would be 2 or 4 x 3/8 bolt holes. At the telephone time I could not recall any such hole arrangements, BUT looking in the garage after I've found 4 x 3/8 holes covered over with foil-thin aluminium tape painted over black. So...

These holes are equi-spaced about the centre of the car but seem too wide spaced to me unless the Hart had some kind of a steel frame/cross beam to mount it to the car. Any one help please? Holes are about 1000mm apart.

Thinking the b'head was free of holes (like these) Tony is convinced the car is NOT his.
He thinks my tub came from somewhere, and had the damaged race car's parts grafted on by Mr X, maybe Brian.

If these 4 holes are indeed Hart engine front mount bolts then I finally think this tub is the TD Skoda # 3, sold to Harry, raced once with the Karmann Ghia shell by son alan, and stuffed in a wall.
Mike told me the Ghia shell was a real mess when he got the car off Brian. If the car was crashed then it would be a mess!

Comments welcome from you all.

I just hope I'm right and I'm nearly home and dry.

Graham.

[driftwood]

The Lola he used he thinks came from Mr Ted Colmans who had a transport business, and really ran a 'motorsport team' with Rag Doodle as the driver (I may have this wrong so don't yell at me)Ted Toleman runs F2 F1 team later has transport company moving new cars around his driver in f2 is Rad Dougall
The front wheels are exactly as Tony remembers along with the 6 pin drive centre locks.Ralt wheels have same drive peg as March wheels-so do you have Ralt front uprights on the car? casting will have RT on it with a number say 010 011 - if in doubt post foto on here also how far apart are the "engine mount holes" -- also why did he build new car wa sit due to weight issues? the Lola T290 based car would have been a good car maybe a tad heavy

[Clive Brown]

Rad Dougall , South African guy who came to England and raced ( I think ) a Royale RP26 FF2000 car sponsored by Toleman Delivery Services , who at one time sponsored Colin Hawker in Special Saloons , firstly his Capri and latterly the DFVW ! Owned by Ted Toleman , at one point the company held the contract to deliver new Dagenham Dustbins from factory or docks to the Ford dealer network . The core company survived through various mergers and acquisitions under various different names and with its vehicles sporting a number of different liveries over the years until quite recently .

The Toleman racing enterprise , of course , carried on all the way up to the snakepit of F1 ; I believe some Brazilian geezer drove for them at one time .

[driftwood]

Clive
les nash later raced Lotus Cortina with the FPPE on it and purp stripe in classic saloon cars in 88 89 90 by then he was not a young man ( dare i say it looked like he was ready to retire) still quick though
so what car did George give to Talbot musuem?

[Clive Brown]

Must have been the third and final one ( completed after Easter 1973 ) , unless , of course , the Les Nash car came back . I doubt very much whether George actually gave the car to the Talbot museum ; he disliked Chrysler Comps. intensely , and not without good reason . Des O'Dell ; now , there was a useless t****r for you ! Des deserved an OBE - Other B******s Efforts !

[driftwood]

it was the french peugeot Talbot museum not the UK dept

Ted Toleman also sponsored Osella Gp 6 car at LM for Tom walkinshaw
Ted also raced off shore power boats
heard he sold out the biz and firked orf to sarf africa

[bob k.]

I do not see a sale to any Colmans on the Lola list of purchasers of the 490 492 cars. There is however, a sale to Toleman Holdings of 490 chassis number HU6 on Feb 7 1977
bob k.

[Clive Brown]

Now , this all makes very good sense . If you consider the FVA/C as a Mk. I , and the BD- series engines as as a Mk. II , then the 420R was the Mk. III . I always understood that the 420R was a FoMoCo ' skunkworks ' project , which in the end they decided not to take up as a production entity , and accordingly allowed ' Gnosher ' to develop to its logical conclusion .

The FV- series motors were essentially tool-room engines on a production block . Complex to build and service , they were also hamstrung by the limited bore sizes easily attainable with the four-pot Ford iron block of the period ; the pukka Cosworth 1790 cc FVC had a bore of a mere 85.6 mm !

The BD- series overcame the first objection , but still fell foul of the second . Yes , the BDG did have a 90mm bore , but I understand that for every 10 blocks machine to take the special brazed-liners that allowed this , nine failed QC inspection .

Ford's own original efforts to produce an alloy block to get round this problem were a catastrophe ; the blocks simply fell to pieces as a result of stress cracking and fatigue failures , even in tree-racing ( sorry , rally ! ) spec. .

Finally , at 90mm the bores were already rather closer together than might be considered ideal to allow proper water circulation .

Enter , then , the 420R ; bigger bore centres ( hence a longer engine ) , a lighter block , yet because of its ladder-frame sump design , strong enough to allow the use of the engine as a stressed or semi-stressed member , which is to say , mounted from the front with the gearbox bolted to the back . All of its predecessors had to be mounted from the bosses cast into the sides of the block ; exactly , in fact as per the quintessential 105E Anglia motor of 1959 .

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by driftwood

it was the french peugeot Talbot museum not the UK dept

I realise that - but heh , same s**t , merely a different blanket !

[911thillclimber]

This does actually make some sense.Tony talked of the links to tolman, their F2 to F1 venture and the likes of Pat Symonds, Rory Burns etc.

The sale of a Lola to Tolman Holdings as I presume Ted raced with sponsorship of his business seems to add up.

So:

Are we finally there now?

My Lola is a T490 (it does have the 2 radiator holes in the front/tub/engine bay) HU6?

Ted raced it and eventually sold it to Tony Dickinson for Skoda # 3.

It then passed to Harry Humberston (who Tony remembers well and with respect) and had the pink/white Karmann Ghia body off Dr Enderby's moulds.

This tub/body was engineered by John Schenieder and Tony Harman for Harry's son Andy to race.

He did so, stuffing the car with a fright.

The roller then went to Brian who added a Cossie /FT200 and lost interest.

Mike bought the lot from Brian and did some restoration work.

I bought it this year as a roller and butchered it!

Does this all work?

The crunch detail is the mounting of the Hart in the tub's bulkhead. Anyone with a clue about that?

Graham.

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by bob k.

.... a sale to Toleman Holdings of 490 chassis number HU6 on Feb 7 1977.

Tarrah ! Could it be that after all this time , it transpires that 911thillclimber's car is 490 HU6 ?

[911thillclimber]

Numbers 4, 8 and 5 are claimed on the Lola site.

I must crack the Hart mountings, but what a result if this is all correct!

One last push from you wizards, how did the Hart block have it's mounting bolts?

They certainly are not 1000 ish mm apart!

There must have been a cross beam to link to the tub and to the block/head?

Oddly, just as my 911 engine is mounted!

[Clive Brown]

This might be a red herring , but when mounting the Imp motor ( which most certainly could notbe used stressed ! ) in the Karmann Ghia , we had Bert Ray fabricate a frame which bolted to the rear frame of the monocoque at three points , and to which in turn the engine was fixed through metalastik bushes by two points at the top of the front timing cover of the Imp motor . I suggest that a simple fabricated sub-frame between the back of the monocoque and the front of the engine would have done the trick equally well for a 420R ; just make sure that it can't flex and foul the cambelt !

The original Tiga SC79 Sports 2000 chassis mounted its Pinto engine as a semi-stressed member in a square-section tubular sub-frame , which unlike that in your Lola , could be unbolted from the back of the monocoque .

[911thillclimber]

This is a common sense engineering approach.

The 911 car itself uses a similar cross beam to hold 2 rubber bushes to stablilise the engine under full torque. Those bushes are about 1000mm apart across the rear of the shell.

I have used the same beam on this conversion to this shell. Makes for a ver effective stable mounting.

Gerald at Lola Heritage confirms the Ted Toleman HU 6 purchase as a T 490 in Feb 1977.
There were 4 drivers under Toleman;
Ted himself, Alex Hawkridge, Rad Dougall and Derek Daly.

I have asked if this Ten Tenths thread will suffice as evidence that the car is HU 409/6 and I can get a chassis plate from Lola itself. It would be near impossible to get letters off people on the topic, so I live in hope.

Fingers crossed!