2017 FORMULA 1 AZERBAIJAN GRAND PRIX - Grand Prix Weekend Thread

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It's not F1 drivers are being terrible at rolling restarts that's the problem, it's allowing the lead driver to dictate the pace. Instead, the lead driver should be required to maintain pace lap speed until reaching a designated restart point on the track.

In this incident, absolutely, yes. I should have clarified, but just in general, the amount of time some drivers give up on restarts blows my mind. We're talking several seconds!

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

He was backing up the field to gain an advantage on the restart. When I watch the video, he parked it on exit of the corner regardless of whether his is on/off the brake/throttle. You can't even see the safety car at that point. That's against all the rules where I'm from... if it is not in F1, fair enough, but I still think karma worked here.

Vettel acted like a petulant child after the incident. People want to like the guy but he makes it extremely difficult. I honestly think he was so out of his mind with anger that he didn't even know he knocked wheels with Hamilton.

Backing up the field is entirely within the rules. The lead car dictates the pace.

Hamilton, apparently, adhered exactly to the rules. I'm not sure where you get your definition of Karma from, but where I'm from, adhering to the rules is the correct course of action, and deserves more nice karma points than being such a dumb ass you run in to the car in front, then run in to them again to make the point.

To say that this was karma for LH beggars belief.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

how did Hamilton drive like a twit? confirmed by FIA he did nothing wrong....

Hamilton is a very experienced driver, three times World Champion, and would have expected Vettel to be ready to accelerate away from the corner. Maybe - just maybe- he thought that by not accelerating Vettel might have to brake sharply and have someone to run into him? With the whole field closely bunched this is more than a possibility, in fact a probability.

Perhaps I am in the minority but Vettel giving Lewis a sideswipe was merely 'handbags', no way was he going to compromise either of their cars.
It was under safety car conditions not at racing speed, and in my opinion innocuous. All of the hand wringing and calls for sever penalties is simply hogwash, from those who do not understand Grand Prix racing except as a TV medium.

Some commentators seem to feel that Mercedes had the edge on Ferrari this weekend, but Bottas was flat out trying to catch Stroll, yet Seb was pulling him in, while Lewis could not live with the Ferrari.

Don't rule Modena out just yet.

As always feel free to disagree.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by bauble

Perhaps I am in the minority but Vettel giving Lewis a sideswipe was merely 'handbags', no way was he going to compromise either of their cars.
It was under safety car conditions not at racing speed, and in my opinion innocuous. All of the hand wringing and calls for sever penalties is simply hogwash, from those who do not understand Grand Prix racing except as a TV medium.

As always feel free to disagree.

I will. For my money, at the point when the red mist descended on Vettel, I think he did not have control of his car - if only briefly - and that is a hugely dangerous thing, even allowing for their slow speed at the time. Once you accept those 'handbags', you open the door to something much more dangerous being done by someone else if a 10 second stop and go is all you stand to lose. I would have black flagged him and pulled him out of the race - without hesitation.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Backing up the field is entirely within the rules. The lead car dictates the pace.

Hamilton, apparently, adhered exactly to the rules. I'm not sure where you get your definition of Karma from, but where I'm from, adhering to the rules is the correct course of action, and deserves more nice karma points than being such a dumb ass you run in to the car in front, then run in to them again to make the point.

To say that this was karma for LH beggars belief.

Well then the rules need to be changed because this is the kind of crap that happens. Dodgy restarts lead to dodgy results. The karma was in reference to if you park your car, you might get hit. Hamilton backed up the field, parked his car at the exit of a corner and got hit for doing it... oh well.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Well then the rules need to be changed because this is the kind of crap that happens. Dodgy restarts lead to dodgy results. The karma was in reference to if you park your car, you might get hit. Hamilton backed up the field, parked his car at the exit of a corner and got hit for doing it... oh well.

Agreed.

They need a restart box or something on the main straight of the track, not this dodgy stuff they've got now where you're taking off multiple corners before the main straight.

Heck, most tracks have a DRS zone on the main straight, use the activation line as the restart line.

[VIVA GT]

As others have said, the rules state that the driver of the lead car takes control of the pack and dictates the speed. Please bear in mind that the driver of the lead car is in fact the guy who was leading the race (and often with quite a gap from those behind) before the safety car bunched everyone up. In these situations the driver of the lead car always tries (generally by legitimate means) to (re) gain some of the advantage they had lost through no fault of their own (remember that these guys are RACING DRIVERS). Lewis got the drop on everyone else at the first re-start and was only trying to do the same thing a second time. From what I've read from the official sources he did nothing at all different the second time when compared to the first. As a RACING DRIVER Seb was also trying to gain an advantage at the restart by second-guessing what Lewis was going to do but guessed wrong, and ran into the back of the Mercedes. What was stupid in my opinion was to then draw level with the Mercedes and bang wheels with it! It may have been only 'handbags', and was not at full racing speed so not as dangerous as it could have been, plus, as a World Champion he should have brilliant enough car control to make sure that it was not dangerous. However, it was a very petulant thing to do, and set a very poor example of how to behave on the track to younger & less experienced drivers....

[fieldodreams79]

A little contact, a little anger, team infighting, questionable driving standards from multiple times world champions, multiple mechanical failures, disagreements between fellow countrymen, castles, sunlight glare, debris, dust, people standing on roofs to watch, bat$hit 3 wide crazy restarts, disagreements amongst fans, drivers and teams on tactics/racecraft, anxious team managers on the radio, cussing on the radio, teenagers getting their first podium and drinking from the winners shoe, McLeran and Williams scoring points, overtaking for position at the finish line, blind corners and turns scary when you take them solo...

Why can't at least 1 in 4 be as fun as this? Do we need sprinklers afterall?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Backing up the field is entirely within the rules. The lead car dictates the pace.

Why does the lead car dictate the pace?

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Why does the lead car dictate the pace?

Because the rules say so. So it's hardly surprising that a racing driver tries to take full advantage of that.

I can't explain why the rules say that. That's where the stupidity lies.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Because the rules say so. So it's hardly surprising that a racing driver tries to take full advantage of that.

I can't explain why the rules say that. That's where the stupidity lies.

I understand the rules say so but what is the reasoning behind it?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I understand the rules say so but what is the reasoning behind it?

i think Viva GT just explained it.

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

...Please bear in mind that the driver of the lead car is in fact the guy who was leading the race (and often with quite a gap from those behind) before the safety car bunched everyone up. In these situations the driver of the lead car always tries (generally by legitimate means) to (re) gain some of the advantage they had lost through no fault of their own (remember that these guys are RACING DRIVERS). ....

questioning the logic of the rule is fine and maybe this really is an area that deserves greater clarity.

but in all honesty is there any set of SC rules that will work in both maximizing safety while not at the same time penalizing drivers because another driver got into an accident?


the degree of danger is debatable but bottom line for me was that SV reaction was unsporting.

but equally unsporting is the need for the rules to become overly complicated particularity for a situation where there is no clear cut better system to replace it with imo.

[bella]

why is it up to the leader to dictate the pace? because the safety car isn't there (or fast enough) to do it for them?

very little is wrong with the safety car restart procedure. it's only at baku where there's problems because of the circuit layout - see matsushita getting a ban for messing about in gp2 last year. it works multiple times a weekend across the world. most drivers manage to leave a big enough gap to the car in front so they can react to what that car does, including tyre and brake warming.

why are people trying to see fault with a procedure that tripped vettel up because he made a misjudgement? most people grow out of that in formula renault...

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I will. For my money, at the point when the red mist descended on Vettel, I think he did not have control of his car - if only briefly - and that is a hugely dangerous thing, even allowing for their slow speed at the time. Once you accept those 'handbags', you open the door to something much more dangerous being done by someone else if a 10 second stop and go is all you stand to lose. I would have black flagged him and pulled him out of the race - without hesitation.

Well I must admit that Hamilton is the perfect roll model for all future would be Grand Prix drivers. After al he has NEVER pushed another driver, let alone a team mate, off of the track, chopped across another car, never blamed the car for his faults, and behaves impeccably when ever he wins a race. A true sporting legend.
Ask Felipe Massa about Lewis's early years, he can testify to his exacting driving standards.

Surely you can not disagree with me now?

[Aysedasi]

That's not the point. I'm not comparing Vettel to Hamilton or anyone else. (And I'm well aware that you're not exactly a Hamilton fan, so I make allowances for that in your responses). I'm criticising what Vettel did. The fact that other drivers may have misbehaved at other times in the past is completely irrelevant to my point and - in any event, we're surely not really trying to balance scales here - are we?

(As I read it again, your quote could apply to virtually every driver who's won a GP in the last 20+ years.....

[Akrapovic]

The leader dictates the pace, but they do not have free reign to do whatever they want.

Article 39.13 (snippet of relevant info)
In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.

[Aysedasi]

Like running into the car in front.........

It brings back memories of what I was always being told in school... 'You must pay attention......'

[Akrapovic]

Indeed. Vettel very guilty. But like every other driver who leads a SC pack, I don't think Lewis is completely innocent.

It's a bit odd we have flashing red lights on the cars to say when the cars will slow down a little bit, but no brake lights to say when the cars will slow down a lot. Seems like an odd situation to have gotten itself into!

[Aysedasi]

True enough!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i think Viva GT just explained it.

He said he can't explain why the rules say that. #160

There must be some explanation or logic behind the rule, somewhere..

[bobec]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Backing up the field is entirely within the rules. The lead car dictates the pace.

I feel like this wasn't just backing up the field (which is obviously allowed but you have to do it right). This turned out more like brake-testing. Whatever the stewards say, anyone can see the onboard cam with its limited telemetry to see that he did slow down significantly on corner exit. I'm not saying he is necessarily guilty, but there are questions there. But very few people are asking them, people are too busy bashing Vettel (who did get his punishment).

[bella]

don't want to sound like a wally here but it seems the problem is that people are taking stuff out of context. how about looking at the rest of the time hamilton was controlling the pace at the end of every other safety car period during the race? that'd look equally weird because that's what controlling the pace is.

if you're too close to the car in front it's your own fault for driving into them. everyone else in the field managed fine and they had a more tricky job than the guy in second. what's the problem?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by bella

don't want to sound like a wally here but it seems the problem is that people are taking stuff out of context. how about looking at the rest of the time hamilton was controlling the pace at the end of every other safety car period during the race? that'd look equally weird because that's what controlling the pace is.

if you're too close to the car in front it's your own fault for driving into them. everyone else in the field managed fine and they had a more tricky job than the guy in second. what's the problem?

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by bella

why is it up to the leader to dictate the pace? because the safety car isn't there (or fast enough) to do it for them?

very little is wrong with the safety car restart procedure. it's only at baku where there's problems because of the circuit layout - see matsushita getting a ban for messing about in gp2 last year. it works multiple times a weekend across the world. most drivers manage to leave a big enough gap to the car in front so they can react to what that car does, including tyre and brake warming.

why are people trying to see fault with a procedure that tripped vettel up because he made a misjudgement? most people grow out of that in formula renault...

The safety car is there but Hamilton backed the field up so far it cannot be seen.

I disagree and believe that if F1 have not defined the restart procedure, they should do so. This is not how it works everywhere in the world because there are rules in every N.American series to prevent these types of incidents.

Had this been Indycar and, let's say, Helio Castroneves is in Hamilton's spot, the start would be waived off. If he did it again, he would be sent to the back of the pack. ...not that it has happened to him several times.

I think the diversity of opinion in this thread is specifically because restarts are handled so differently in other series. What Hamilton did is seen as poor sportsmanship from where I'm standing. What Vettel did in reaction is unarguably stupid, however.

[chillibowl]

i dont think its fair to apply the sporting standards of another series to criticize a driver from a different series, especially, when its acknowledge that there are different rules/procedures between the two.

to point out that there is a better way to do things for sure but to call LH's action un sporting because they do things differently somewhere else is a tad extreme imo.

in F1, any driver leading the pack would have slowed or attempted to back up the pack and typically when they do we applaud the driver for it as this is not only the expected behaviour it was up until now universally considered an important skill to have in F1.