Photography from public areas and selling photos

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by David Stallard

Hobbyist photographer: Any equipment ranging from a mobile phone (yes we have seen you) to top of the market kit on auto because it looks cool, shooting on 'burst' so at least one of them should be in focus (really skillful that) - turns up at some point during the day, wanders about taking photos as and when they want to (if the weathers nice) goes home when they have had enough, quick look at the photos as they upload them to flickr or farcebook and gives them away to anyone who asks 'for a mention'

True for some (probably the majority) - but there are also some very good photographers on the 'wrong' side of the fence.

Originally Posted by David Stallard

Accredited photographer: Worked for years to get accreditation, using the best gear they can afford (a very few get it supplied by a 'boss') drive all over the country in their own vehicle if they follow a series sleep in their car or get a cheap b&b / hotel - all paid for out of their own pockets, on top of that there is public liability insurance which is a must as well a camera insurance (you try and get cover for 20k's worth of gear that you basically dragging around a field).
They usually arrive before the circuit becomes live and are then 'shooting' for a good 8 > 10 hours a day in all weathers (your race in heavy rain may be over in 20 minutes but what about all the rest) and only getting back to the car when most of the drivers are in the bar or on their way home.
Once they eventually get home then they can spend 'many' hours processing the photos taken and finally uploading them.

So near on three / four days work, quite often unpaid all for some . . . person . . . to say "why should I pay a tenner for a photo off you when my mates boy's brothers girlfriend will do me a disk of photos through the fence that may be okay for a pound each" Would you work for 10 > 14 hours a day for say £50? you probably spend that much in the McDonalds on the way home.

I'm happy to buy images from 'proper' photographers (and do) because as you rightly say the person wielding the camera usually knows what they're doing (there are also some people accredited that clearly don't know what they're doing). If you're going to charge me a tenner per image I might buy 1 - charge me £25-£35 for 20+ images and I'll take the lot thank you. It's less per image but a bigger sale overall - surely that's a good thing? Photos are very much a 'nice to have' - budgets are tight for competitors (or are you assuming everyone out there has incredibly deep pockets?).

Our event is also only over after 20 minutes of we've had a problem (more money required to be spent on the car in that case) - our rallies tend to last all day. Quite a few of the events we do are on MOD land and there is no public access and in some cases the official photographers are told exactly where they can and can't point their cameras - the official photographers are the only option in those cases (quite often just the one). In those cases as well I've been buying the full set of photos for around the £30 mark. Where is the difference in cost expectation coming from?

I should also mention that it's the photographers that have come up with the pricing I'm using as examples - those are the prices quoted in their post event emails.

Also I don't eat McDonalds - if you're eating £50 worth of that muck you're not going to be very competitive when you're in the car!

Originally Posted by David Stallard

REALLY SORRY for the rant, but over the last few years we have been hearing this more and more. Magazines and papers don't pay anymore (only to a very select few) so the majority of us rely on the few sales we do get to get us to the next event, as for replacing gear that gets broken or wears out - there is always the credit card for that 5k camera body (going to take a while to pay that one off)

DAVID. let the slagging off begin.

Basically it comes down to the fact that times have moved on - there are more people taking photos at events and it's far easier to distribute photos than ever before. At some events there seem to be crowds of photographers trackside - maybe over saturation there as well? Price your wares competitively and they'll sell, pitch the prices too high and you'll price yourself out of the market. Harsh maybe - but realistic.

[David Stallard]

You have some valid points sir, and at the end of the day it is your choice to buy or not.

Personally - I have my prices which I stick to and if you say no then as far as I'm concerned it's your loss. I agree that there are in fact some spectators that do some terrific work, I know a few and they wouldn't go trackside due to the commitment involved.

As I mentioned I have to work full time in my 'day job' just to cover my weekend job, it's a sad state of affairs and I personally believe it's only going to get worse.

.DAVID.

[lemansnsx]

Making money from the teams and drivers in motorsports photography is a complete non-starter. The teams and drivers expect everything to be given to them for free - they are spoiled by all the fanboy GWCs (guys with cameras) giving them stuff for free. The worst of the GWC species: the bottom feeders who cheerfully contact the teams promising to work for free in return for help with a credential. That's right - these GWCs are willing to give up their weekends, do travel, lodging and food all at their own expense to GIVE AWAY THEIR WORK FOR FREE. Never stopping to think about the food they are taking from another photographer's table.
How do they do it? They "subsidize" the photography with their day jobs and use their holidays and weekends for their hobby at the expense of all of the pros who are scraping by trying to make a living from their photography.
The ONLY thing the pro has that allows him to compete with free is the quality of his work and his commitment but there's an awful lot of people only concerned with price and it is hard to beat free.
Meanwhile the GWC kids himself thinking he'll work for free just to get his foot in the door and then he'll start charging once he's established his credibility. Problem is he's also established what his work is worth and people aren't going to pay his new rates. Once you set a price of free it's awfully hard to convince people to pay you.
Sometimes a team learns their lesson the hard way - the GWC fails to deliver, the image that looked good on Facebook can't be blown up to 12' high for the paddock enclosure, etc. Then, if the pro has managed to live on packets of soup, he gets an offer to work at a much reduced rate because he's now competing with a rate of 0 dollars per hour.
Just in case anyone thinks that anybody is making money in this game - you can count on one hand the number of photographers who are making any profit in a given top level series. Everyone else is losing money if they are using real accounting methods.
Even at the top levels the ONLY way there is money to be made is by working your butt off, having multiple clients per event (to spread out the expenses) and constantly sweating someone undercutting you and stealing a client. Throw in the constant exodus of teams and sponsors and there is zero security only lots of hard work and sleepless nights.

Quick note on credentials and rights: a photography credential to a major event does NOT normally give you the right to sell your pictures. It only gives you editorial rights - the right to use your pictures in illustration of a news story.
In order to profit from sales of your photographs you must also purchase the commercial rights from the series that sanctions the event. In other words a licensing agreement strictly controlling how they are marketed, what items you can sell and the numbers of sales expected - usually at a cost of several thousand dollars for a major series.

[flagwaver]

This is a hard one and I can see both sides of the argument. The problem for the pro. or semi pro. (those that make money from selling photographs) is that for better or worse, almost everybody can know take a photograph. Nothing those who charge can really do about that.

As for those that complain that all the free photographs, are taking money from the "professionals" then particularly as far as motorsport goes you are onto a looser.

Just look around the paddock how many people are being paid to be there? most drivers have spent several thousands on their cars. They use a mate as a mechanic or do their own "tinkering" They spend their own money to peruse their hobby. So why do some photographers believe that only those who pay for photographs should have them.

The only way those who get paid can compete is to produce photographs that make people think wow.

[bella]

Originally Posted by flagwaver

The only way those who get paid can compete is to produce photographs that make people think wow.

vastly understated point in this thread. in many series there are successful businessmen, very much aware of the "you get what you pay for" mantra. if you want a spectacular product, you have to pay decent money for it.

all of the most spectacularly good photographers i know of charge solid money for their products because they are unique. they have a strong portfolio of customers.

if you find you can't make money at the price you're offering it's because your product is overpriced for what it is and represents poor value for money. if you are working for a client and they are paying for your time exclusively you can charge them accordingly. if you are selling a weekends worth of photographs to them on a non exclusive basis then you charge a relevant percentage of your time and expenses. if you are just selling individual shots to pretty much anyone who wants to buy them you realistically can't seek to regain your costs that way. that's just pin money really.

i think there's a degree of arrogance from some photographers who think that because they have had work then they are in a more senior position than anyone else. nobody has the right to any business, especially in something as creative as photography. if you cannot make a living then you must diversify, seek to make your product unique and more desirable or take on other work in the meantime. if a team or driver cannot afford to hire a proper photographer then why not let a guy with a camera contribute to their social media site?

[lemansnsx]

Originally Posted by bella

if you find you can't make money at the price you're offering it's because your product is overpriced for what it is and represents poor value for money.

I'll disagree with that in one sense. When you compete with other professionals it is a level playing field. When you are competing against well-heeled amateurs it is not a level playing field at all.
The product is not over-priced - it's realistically priced. It's priced to cover equipment, insurance, travel, accommodation, time spent on processing, etc.

[bella]

i get completely what you're saying and you're on completely sound ground, but equally, if there's no market for what you're offering then you don't have a business. it's really as simple as that unfortunately. you either have to reduce your price and increase it gradually as you gain respect and loyal customers, or walk away from doing motorsport full time and do something else to pay the bills.

it's an annoying situation, and i do really agree with you completely. but my business common sense says that such an attitude does not fly in a competitive market.

[lemansnsx]

Originally Posted by bella

but my business common sense says that such an attitude does not fly in a competitive market.

The problem with that competitive market is that it has destroyed the business. Not talking about track day photogs selling prints either. Top name guys - names you would know from tbe magazines - are talking about this and about getting out of the business completely. These aren't guys who need to consider ways to be more competitive. These guys are artists and there is nothing wrong with their product. Unfortunately there is a certain minimum needed to cover expenses and a reasonable profit and that number can't be met any more.