Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by icemachine

More of an open wheeler than the Delta Wing

Hardly. The best of bunch as far as I can see is the Lola, with that versatile tub.

[JagtechOhio]

OK, here it is, straight from the source: the head of Honda Performance Development. Just about every bit of this is new public information, and there is a lot.

Have a read for yourselves, and look for the important stuff. Most of it will sound somewhat familiar if you've been reading this thread for awhile.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no231.html

[JagtechOhio]

For starters, here's a little jewel. Berkman:

"Once the Delta Wing came out we asked the League which way they were leaning. We told them our strong advocacy is for a bespoke, custom-designed jewel of a race engine using all of the technology that we can bring to bear so it meets the three tenets that we set at the first roundtable."

This whole deal says V6, leased, and expensive. Period.

It also says "sole supplier", unless some manufacturer leaps from the bushes and opens his raincoat on the 17th tee.

Berkman: "We've been continuing to march along a path but we are now at a point where we've stopped marching. We're standing still, marking time. We've told the League that June 1st is a hard date for us as an engineering company to get to our objectives for 2012."

Continuing: "It should have been April 1st. But we respect and appreciate that Randy needs these two months to be able to do his process. It's a complicated and important thing to decide but now's the time. Everybody can't be happy because everyone can't win. But hopefully he can strike the right balance."
_____________________________________________________

That says TAIL WAGS DOG.

Nobody looked for what was already available. Everyone waited to be told what to build. Chassis designs frozen for lack of engine specifications. Manufacturers calculating the cost of development for mythical engines.
Bullsh*t.

And now it's too late, because I read that article and say again that the decision was made, then fumbled for a while, and now they are stuck with the imaginary V6 or they get nothing at all.

They don't have the imagination to do anything else.

ICONIC meetings commenced last week. That was round one.

Delta's first tee shot went straight into the pond. Lola and Dallara are still foreigners playing on American turf with a sponsor's exemption.

You look at Swift's renderings and tell me those are fire-breathing V6 turbo stressed engine wheel bangers, and I say NO WAY. Those are Formula Nippon cars with some extra skin. Finely crafted 5 irons.

The IICS is going to turn to the caddy, and ask him what club to use.
The caddy is pulling out Big Bertha. Honda is calling the shots, they run a third of the tournaments on tour and supply all the clubs.

And the IICS can't even get started, until they turn to the caddy to ask for balls.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

OK, here it is, straight from the source: the head of Honda Performance Development. Just about every bit of this is new public information, and there is a lot.

Have a read for yourselves, and look for the important stuff. Most of it will sound somewhat familiar if you've been reading this thread for awhile.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no231.html

That was a good read. I quite like the V6 route they've taken, rather than following the FIA with its GRE, being involved with the ACO has rubbed off a bit.

[Juarez Jed]

So Honda had an in principle agreement to supply whatever it wanted as the next generation engine, but Indycar upset the applecart by sounding out other suppliers such as VW and also encouraged other manufacturers to rush to the IICS with their Global Racing Engines with the recent promotion of the Deltawing concept.
With no other manufacturer interest other than Honda's, Indycar have to accept the Honda V6 on Honda's terms or adopt pedal power in the future.
And Roger Penske knew this all along.
Plus independent builders don't get a second's consideration either Jagtech it would seem. Manufacturer lease deals that save the team owners so much money are the top priority.
Now all we have to think about is whether the new chassis with it's stressed v6 is going to race better than the current one, or will the other criteria such as new-age visual appeal or the need to manufacture in Indianapolis take priority over that too.

[JagtechOhio]

Indubitably, my good chap.

But of course this engine does not exist, nor will it before the 2012 season.

And if Dallara is not chosen to build the next chassis, they will have no interest in involving themselves with engineering the V6 into an old I3 chassis. Nor will the transition be considered as practical to perform for only one year of competition.

So 2012 for a new package at the very best, more likely 2013. And no interim changes.

That don't qualify.

The TV ratings are barely moving. Rahal can't find a job, and Carl Haas is ready to give his up. String it out long enough, and maybe Honda or the new chassis supplier crunches the numbers and decides the whole deal isn't worth it.

[JagtechOhio]

To Jed:
All excellent points, that's the gist of it. My views differ only slightly:

"And Roger Penske knew this all along."

He probably doesn't know any more than Berkman, and only now have both mentioned fittment of a new engine into the old chassis. An engine which does not exist, so what's the hurry?

"Manufacturer lease deals that save the team owners so much money are the top priority."

Which isn't going to happen, as Berkman indicated. If the $935K plus goes down at all, it won't be much.

"Plus independent builders don't get a second's consideration.."

If they write the spec for Honda and a stressed V6, I would fully expect that to end any chance of variety or cost reduction. Spot on.

"...the need to manufacture in Indianapolis take priority..."

It's only my opinion, but I am carving that one in stone. Too much money on the table, and that moves mountains...fan surveys don't.

"...recent promotion of the Deltawing concept."

I still see that as an "all or nothing" move. Had the release been successful, the team owners would have forced IICS to accept the Delta or watch them walk. Now, the owners have no card to play.

Delta's configutation and engine package have nothing to do with the current realities, and will never be popular enough to change them.

If Dallara and Lola do not have firm committments in place for the Indy manufacturing they promised, suckers walk.

If BAT has the financial resources to build the cars they are promising, money talks.

Swift is on the outside looking in. from too far away, in my opinion.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

If Dallara and Lola do not have firm committments in place for the Indy manufacturing they promised, suckers walk.

Rather like the article, which said HPD would have liked to have known back in April what was happening, I'm sure the same applies to Dallara and Lola. They can't really commit to manufacturing if there is doubt regarding a new chassis.

[mountainstar]

My take on the Kirby article once you condense all the long winded stuff down and all the ifs and buts:

Honda to irl:

"Crap or get off the can"

Over and out.

[JagtechOhio]

Yep.

Star, you see N/H/L is dwindling? Is that the major team you mentioned?

'Cause rumor is hot that it's Indy and done for them.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

My take on the Kirby article once you condense all the long winded stuff down and all the ifs and buts:

Honda to irl:

"Crap or get off the can"

Over and out.

Succinctly put.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Yep.

Star, you see N/H/L is dwindling? Is that the major team you mentioned?

'Cause rumor is hot that it's Indy and done for them.

Nope haven't heard anything lately.

But you'd have to figure a ownership reorganization is on the cards. Newman was a key driving force and he's gone, Haas isn't getting any younger and Lanigan has been up and down.

I don't think anyone would argue the team is not what it was, but nature and the cycles of life always reclaims everything at some point. They had a good run.

[JagtechOhio]

Lanigan is out. The Haas's offered to sell him the team. He left.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Lanigan is out. The Haas's offered to sell him the team. He left.

Yep looks to be the case. Well I guess we will see what happens to the team.

[JagtechOhio]

Ford racing says that Honda desparately wants competition. Also that Ford never answered the invitation to the engine rountable discussions.

Bowlby says on the Discovery channel TV clip that the Delta will be built, whether it is selected by IICS or not. The shape is unchanged, no further word about the engine which will presumaably be the MZR-R 4 cyl. turbo.

No word from thr GMR racing guy who said they wanted to know more. Guess not.

Vitor Meira talking about the upcoming race in Kansas, Foyt Racing site:

• On having more downforce at Kansas than last year: “This is going to play a big part in the race because it’s the same aero package that they had at Kentucky, so it will be a very exciting race! With more downforce, which is what this new package gives you, we can run closer together and the car doesn’t have to be as perfect in order to have a good race. You can mask a little bit of mechanical problems with the aerodynamics. Also with more downforce comes more drag and with more drag, the draft is better so you can pick up more time being behind faster cars. The fans are going to have a really exciting race…and so are we.”
____________________________________________________________

That's the rear tire ramps and sidepod extensions, wheel infills and C scoops...never seen a car run the scoops yet.

So we'll see if more downforce makes for better racing, and I'm way off track if it does. Everyone will be lapping flat, with a 9 HP overtake assist of very limited frequency. And the race length is perfect for running around trying to save fuel to make it on two stops.

Prolly run two top gears, one that saves you 500 RPM and a little fuel.

If you call a big pack of cars running in formation lap after lap good racing, my guess is you're in for a treat.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Ford racing says that Honda desparately wants competition. Also that Ford never answered the invitation to the engine rountable discussions.

So will Ford join the fray? It's got to be a positive thing. Hopefully the IRL will take heed.

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

If you call a big pack of cars running in formation lap after lap good racing, my guess is you're in for a treat.

I don't particularly care for NASCAR, .

[JagtechOhio]

No, Ford has no involvement. The only enthusiasm they expressed is for the day when there is a common platform which can fit different series. They buy into the GRE concept, but mentioned no plans to play.

They acknowledged the point about the Duratec, but stressed that Olsbergs is a small builder. It doesn't change my opinion, just confirms that nobody will listen to it.

Big money, big politics. Engines are no better than third on the list.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Well I got that hopelessly wrong. Then again of course Honda want competition, it's good for marketing if you're beating the other engine manufacturer; translates into sales.

[JagtechOhio]

Yep. Maybe Oreovicz can find out if there is another V6 hidden in the bushes. He's in Kansas, and is pretty much up to speed.

[JagtechOhio]

Here's a short commentary on what the ICONIC panel might be up to so far. Have a look if you are interested, thanks!

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...s-it-is-iconic

[mz2k]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

And the IICS can't even get started, until they turn to the caddy to ask for balls.

If they had any, they woudn't need to ask the caddy (pun intended).

[JagtechOhio]

Got that right, bro.

Last night I found an old article by Gordon Kirby. It discussed a white paper written by Bruce Ashmore (now of BAT Engineering) which was submitted to the IRL for consideration on what the new direction of competition should emulate.

The IRL representative for evaluating this and similar proposals was Neil Ressler...who is now on the ICONIC panel.

This all went down in 2008. Ashmore called for a drastic reduction in downforce, to place more emphasis on the drivers' skill to determine the results of the competition.

And in all this time, no one has made public statements about looking at the current equipment, and making changes to improve the racing we watched yesterday...and will watch for at least the next season and a half, or more.

[JagtechOhio]

Ok, I'm trying to paint a clear and simple picture of the "Stay On Track" changes for a lot of people to read.

The people on this forum were very helpful with your comments in the past, and you seemed to follow what is very difficult for me to clearly explain.

If you have a moment to take a look at the article below, and comment if you wish, it would be much appreciated. The effort is to break this into "bite-size" chunks for ease of explaining the points, and better establishing their effect. Much appreciated!

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3...n-force-debate

[ptclaus98]

Most of the stories on B/R are utter crap. Yours(if they are yours, forgive me if not), are the exception.

[JagtechOhio]

Agreed claus, but never hesitate to include me in that category if I earn it!