Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[JagtechOhio]

Were the same list of crap excuses about running both cars used by CCWS, too?

Ice, what is going on today is another good example of the mistake.

All the low-hangers at Fruit Forum are delighting in the fact that some of the races this year might get to 30 entries, as drivers scrape together enough cash to add a race here and there.

That's only possible because there is still a large inventory of existing race cars. Vision has 3 3/4, Fazzt has four, the 3G cars are still lurking, etc. etc. There will be less of them around next year, particularly if KV Auto Salvage continues its clunker program.

In 2012, there will be people standing around waiting to get their hands on a car. If there are enough of them that can raise the cash to race one here and there.

By the way, thanks for the accurate picture of attendance at Toronto.

[dj4monie]

I agree that Champ Car had much bigger problems than the Panoz. The Panoz actually improved the racing, that in itself is not a bad thing.

What happen though and let's be honest, is kind of like today's politics in America -

There are the oval purist, jingoistic supporters (the ones complaining the loudest about the lack of American Drivers), mostly from around the rust belt. These were the pro USAC faction in CART. They wanted to return the series to its pre-CART era.

The other side was younger, richer, more worldly traveled supporter. They didn't mind the South American or European influence on the series, in fact they embraced it. This is the group that wanted CART to be the rival of F1 and have races not only in America but everywhere in the world.

Never the two shall meet or agree. This is what the ICONIC panel ran into.

The virtual mock-up of the 2012 Dallara clearly has some Delta Wing influence in it. There is only one chassis and thus far only one engine, the Purist side one this debate.

The CART faction lost and lost big, we just hope the Geriatric bunch inside management made the right call.

I don't think they have, if anything you'll see crowds continue to decrease for anything but the Indy 500 and I'm not so sure of that. The Toronto race pulled in a 1.0 rating overnight, which is actually an improvement.

One final thing -

I think "Saving The Earth" does have its place in motorsport, if it can bring new products and services to the average consumer sooner.

ICONIC didn't totally embrace GRE either and I think that's a mistake. Ferrari is not going to build a "one-off" V6 or 4 cylinder Turbocharged Engine. The engine they built for the A1GP car is based on a production engine.

Indycar could have embraced at least one desire of the fan base which was to have more engine variety, but I think Honda forced their hand a bit.

We'll just have to see what happens and I'll continue to say I'm disappointed and I believe the vast majority of the fans are as well.

[JagtechOhio]

The Dallara rendering was essentially their #3 version, pictured in red, and was publicly released in February before anyone knew what the Delta Wing would look like. From memory, I'd say the only substantial change from February is the central mounting for the rear wing.

The IRL did not embrace or reject an engine platform based on suitability, availability or relevance. They embraced the engine dictated by the only manufacturer who guaranteed them a check to race in the series.

"Saving the earth" will only have relevance in motorsports if zero or near- zero emissions technologies are implemented and perfected. Then the environmentalists will admire motorsports, not loathe it. The masses would follow.

Public acceptance and participation in materials recycling is a perfect example of a radical environmental policy acheiving widespread participation.

Motorsports has very little relevance otherwise: it is an entertainment product , and one of diminishing value.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

They race a version of it in the SuperLeague formula, with a V12.

I always thought Champcar made a mistake in dropping Lola and running just with the DP01. If they'd run both chassis it would have given the series variety, more impetus and Lola would have had to build a new chassis in order to compete.

Well, I'm told the DP 09 was mostly a new car, especially from the driver back. I knew the specifics before, but can't remember now, but I think there are only a few cross over parts between the cars.

In any case, certainly there are some similarities there and I watch all the Superleague races and really enjoy it. I think next time I came to Europe, whenever that would be, I'd try to go to one of the races.

Lola did have a design proposal for the new champcar so I think it would have been in everyone's interest to have two chassis and also to open back up engine rules. However there were some dealings going on in the background with certain team owners as to why it all came out the way it did. Same with the Dallara 2012 irl deal, the other manufacturers never stood a chance because certain people were receiving benefit from this deal.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

The Dallara rendering was essentially their #3 version, pictured in red, and was publicly released in February before anyone knew what the Delta Wing would look like. From memory, I'd say the only substantial change from February is the central mounting for the rear wing.

The IRL did not embrace or reject an engine platform based on suitability, availability or relevance. They embraced the engine dictated by the only manufacturer who guaranteed them a check to race in the series.

"Saving the earth" will only have relevance in motorsports if zero or near- zero emissions technologies are implemented and perfected. Then the environmentalists will admire motorsports, not loathe it. The masses would follow.

Public acceptance and participation in materials recycling is a perfect example of a radical environmental policy acheiving widespread participation.

Motorsports has very little relevance otherwise: it is an entertainment product , and one of diminishing value.

I am not worried about the extreme environmentalist, they don't watch motorsport and unless I am missing something, they aren't protesting races or are they?

Ultra Low Emissions is possible and acceptable. But there's also the way they make tires, plastics and other materials. But let the sponsors market it, I wouldn't do it the way the ALMS is doing it. It seems they are more focused on the greening of the sport than the quality of the racing itself.

Palms were greased, game changing initiatives were not embraced, I totally agree.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

The CART faction lost and lost big, we just hope the Geriatric bunch inside management made the right call.

I read all of your post but that stuck out.

I don't think the CART faction has lost out, I think IndyCar racing has lost out. Here was a chance to lay the foundations for the future, after all the nonsense of the last 15 years but instead we've got a 5 year plan based on a spec chassis/engine combo with a bolt on aero kit, which looks like it's going to cost alot to produce.

What the IRONIC group have come up is a half-way house that's designed to appease everyone but in reality won't solve anything. They should have grabbed the bull by the horns and opened the door for all comers, engine and chassis manufacturers a like.

[JagtechOhio]

Bjohn, that was magically delicious. And it sure ain't kool aid.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Bjohn, that was magically delicious. And it sure ain't kool aid.

Is that a pint of Guinness Jag?

It was rather good, even if I say so myself.

Seriously, I'm not one for blowing my own trumpet but the ICONIC group really missed a fantastic oportunity. I sincerely hope IndyCar survives this 5 plan and something better comes of it.

[JagtechOhio]

And one for you as well.

dj, the point is about selling to new customers. Trying to squeeze a living out of "low-hanging fruit" doesn't sell any Guinness, or even kool aid.

Prune juice, maybe. Cheers.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

And one for you as well.

dj, the point is about selling to new customers. Trying to squeeze a living out of "low-hanging fruit" doesn't sell any Guinness, or even kool aid.

Prune juice, maybe. Cheers.

Cheers mate.

Is the Dallara Mk II rendering, that's been submitted, the final draft?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Cheers mate.

Is the Dallara Mk II rendering, that's been submitted, the final draft?

AFAIK none of that design has not been finalized and it's possible the car may not even end up looking like what has been shown.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

AFAIK none of that design has not been finalized and it's possible the car may not even end up looking like what has been shown.

That's what I thought, thanks.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Here was a chance to lay the foundations for the future, after all the nonsense of the last 15 years but instead we've got a 5 year plan based on a spec chassis/engine combo with a bolt on aero kit, which looks like it's going to cost alot to produce.

What the IRONIC group have come up is a half-way house that's designed to appease everyone but in reality won't solve anything. They should have grabbed the bull by the horns and opened the door for all comers, engine and chassis manufacturers a like.

Amen brother. As I said, second tier, irrelevant, spec series. Bernard talks a good game but when push came to shove he didn't have the balls to really change anything, especially now he's saying it MAY be 2013 before we see engine competition. This series dies within 3 years, and even if it doesn't I could care less now. Star Mazda, Dallara Honda (I mean IICS), what's the diff?
Man, I am frustrated by this stupid, short-sighted, Ill-advised decision.

[JagtechOhio]

My next meaningless crusade is to figure out where you get a 140 lb. weight reduction from the existing chassis to the new one.

Back in March/ April, I had incorrectly concluded that a lot of the weight reduction would accompany the use of a 4 cyl. turbo. Wrong.

Perhaps the new gross weight doesn't include the body kits

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Amen brother. As I said, second tier, irrelevant, spec series. Bernard talks a good game but when push came to shove he didn't have the balls to really change anything, especially now he's saying it MAY be 2013 before we see engine competition. This series dies within 3 years, and even if it doesn't I could care less now. Star Mazda, Dallara Honda (I mean IICS), what's the diff?
Man, I am frustrated by this stupid, short-sighted, Ill-advised decision.

I'm glad (probably not the best word to use) you see it's short sighted aswell. I do care but I have my doubts as to whether it can last this interim 5 year period. Naturally, new interest will be generated but I don't know how sustainable it will be as the costs regarding aero kits are going to be high and will be a turn off to any would be newcomers; waving the $200k license fee, for aero kits, would be a step in the right direction.

[gttouring]

Was it really for Indiana that they went with Dallara?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by gttouring

Was it really for Indiana that they went with Dallara?

Good question, considering Lola came up with an almost identical package, the only difference being the multi configuration chassis, that could be used for Indy Lights.

[Tim Northcutt]

Robin Miller's column this week has some items pertaining to the chassis strategy choices, plus some other OW stuff.

FWIW

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...wheel-musings/

[Tim Northcutt]

Robin Miller's column this week has some items pertaining to the chassis strategy choices, plus some other OW stuff.

FWIW

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...wheel-musings/

[JagtechOhio]

Expecting logic and factual information from Robin Miller is a meaningless crusade I gave up long ago.

[JagtechOhio]

It's worth zero, just like the sweet nothings Miller has been whispering in Bernard's ear for four months.

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

... Same with the Dallara 2012 irl deal, the other manufacturers never stood a chance because certain people were receiving benefit from this deal.

Hardly fair on this point; BTW this seemed far more evident about the DW option, whereas the Dallara one could give these supposed "certain people" nothing more than others could IMHO

The basic reason is the Dallara-IRL partnership has worked well for 15 yrs, there was no intelligent reason to try a jump in the dark.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Is it possible to merge this thread with the Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star thread?

[JagtechOhio]

nice landing.

[icemachine]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Is it possible to merge this thread with the Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star thread?

I'd say now that the new chassis has been selected, it would be best to lock up the old thread, providing Jag doesn't object