Bring Road Racing To NASCAR!

[fieldodreams79]

I don't see the Cup series adding road courses anytime in the near future. There seems to be plenty of circle tracks vying for a spot on the calendar as it is, and I feel they would have to dump Sonoma or the Glen to go to another road course.

But, for serious discussion sakes:

VIR, Heartland Park, Road ATL, Mid Ohio already have enough races around them that it is unlikely any will have a NASCAR event.

Barber is a motorcycle track in Alabama, a state that already has two races and one just across the Chattahoochee; not going to happen. If it did, it would be just slightly more exciting than a GA race there.

Laguna or any other Cali track is out; California and Southwest already are covered by manifest destiny.

Miller is just, um, Miller...in the middle of nowhere Utah, a state not really known for having racing fans, let alone NASCAR fans.

No Lime Rock, unless they axe a New Hampshire race.

Sebring is out; FLA has three races already.

Portland would make sense from a regional perspective, but I am unsure of the current situation with the leftist takeover in OR and the actual capacity/facilities at the track itself, number of races allowed, etc.

New Jersey is unlikely; they already got a road race in that region....

Daytona road course? Not over Bill France's dead body.

I find it funny that the base course for the track in Austin hasn't been laid yet, and people are already saying they think certain series would be great there...I dig the layout on paper but the place could be a flop. In addition, the Republic already has two races.

Only likely contender at this time - Road America or Canada. Neither will happen any time soon, IMHO. Just as much of a chance of NASCAR supporting F1 in NYC.

[Purist]

Gav, you grossly overestimate the agility of these cars.

Barber is a bike track, as was pointed out. The longest true straight there is 1595ft, which is NOT long by any means. The entire track, encompassing 17 numbered turns, is only 2.3 miles. Even the hairpin in the middle isn't all that tight as hairpins go, so there are no good braking zones at Barber for these cars.

For reference, in top-tier road racing, a track of under 2.5 miles is considered short. A 2.5-3.5-mile track is in the moderate range. Moderately long tracks run from 3.5-4.0 miles. And 4.0 miles and up is a long road course.

With ovals, less than a mile is short, 1.0-2.0 miles is intermediate, and 2.0 miles and beyond is a long oval.

Montreal has decidedly more in common with permanent courses than with street circuits. It's 2.709 miles around, with only 12 real corners. And there is nowhere at Montreal that is as effectively narrow as some of the complexes you see at Long Beach and St. Petersburg. And no, I don't hold out much hope for the full field being "smart" on the starts and restarts. Hell, they had a crash a few years ago in the esses at Sears Point where they made such a mess of it, even with all the room they had to work with at that point on the track, that they brought out the red flag.

Just because the Canadian series runs Trois Rivieres does NOT mean that the racing is any good. It's hard enough for multi-class sportscar racing to put on a good performance there.

The only straight at Lime Rock that is long enough to actually execute a move is the pit straight. No Name Straight, and the runs to West Bend and Diving Turn are too short for these cars to actually make a move. And the accordion effect you get between those other turns just about ensures this, plus making it extremely likely that trying your luck on the brakes in those other places WILL end with you in the barriers.

The Lightning Circuit at Millville will NEED a fully new pit complex to accomodate Sprint Cup, so until that gets built, there's no way. This would probably also apply for Lime Rock. And both pit lanes are almost certainly way too short to fit 43 boxes of adequate size.

Given how slow these cars are in a lot of the turns, the first half of the lap at Road Atlanta will be follow-the-leader, because there are no braking zones that are severe enough on a straight enough path to allow these cars to pass one another. The Esses are single-file by necessity as well. And I don't know that the first right at the bottom of the course is slow enough at the end of that straight, which may not be long enough either, to be much good for outbraking.

Sebring will suffer from a lot of the same problems as Road Atlanta, and the meandering nature will make blocking absurdly easy, so if for no other reason, a race there could be as parade-like as anywhere else because of defensive driving tactics. Also, the laps at Sebring would be nearing three minutes for these cars, and elevated viewing positions are rather few and far between, which will NOT change because the airport is still active.

Laguna Seca is no tighter than Sears Point, and Sears Point often provides less-than-spectacular races on the whole.

You must be joking about Hallett and Belle Isle. Both are slow and tight. These cars cannot brake and turn like Indy Cars. Trans-Am cars, which have better power-to weight, and much better braking and acceleration, have a hard time passing at Belle Isle. Hallett would be pathetically tight and slow for Cup cars. Both tracks would be noticeably slower than Sears Point. Actually, they both could easily be slower than Martinsville, and the Cup cars might be able to get more top speed at Martinsville than they would at Hallett. You are correct that Hallett definitely lacks adequate facilities to host Sprint Cup. I think it would be somewhat inadequate for Patron GT3 Challenge races even.

BTW, Gav, Lake Afton lost its permission to host anything more than go-karts 20 years ago or so.

FoD79, I'm aware of the geography; I'm just not worrying about it right now. Frankly, I think Cup will go anywhere that makes financial sense for them to fill out their calendar. The West isn't coming out quite as rosy as they'd like, as evidenced by Fontana losing a race. They've changed Phoenix to try and spice things up to keep the crowds happy, so we'll see how that goes over the next few seasons. NASCAR has failed to take hold in the Seattle area; having rain tires would also help in that regard. And the sanction hasn't even bothered with Pikes Peak, even though that would seem like a good market near Denver, and the track is like a slightly scaled-up Richmond, so the racing ought to be decent.

[JHamilton]

Sprint Cup needs short tracks more than road courses. I'd like to see Iowa added to the Cup schedule before another road course.

[NaBUru38]

Another street circuit that Nascar could visit is Baltimore. If they fix the two ridiculous chicanes, the layout would be fine.

I think that Lime Rock, Road Atlanta and Barber are OK in terms of layout. But there are other reasons for Nascar skipping those places.

[Gearhead Gav]

Originally Posted by Purist

Gav, you grossly overestimate the agility of these cars.

Barber is a bike track, as was pointed out. The longest true straight there is 1595ft, which is NOT long by any means. The entire track, encompassing 17 numbered turns, is only 2.3 miles. Even the hairpin in the middle isn't all that tight as hairpins go, so there are no good braking zones at Barber for these cars.

For reference, in top-tier road racing, a track of under 2.5 miles is considered short. A 2.5-3.5-mile track is in the moderate range. Moderately long tracks run from 3.5-4.0 miles. And 4.0 miles and up is a long road course.

With ovals, less than a mile is short, 1.0-2.0 miles is intermediate, and 2.0 miles and beyond is a long oval.

Montreal has decidedly more in common with permanent courses than with street circuits. It's 2.709 miles around, with only 12 real corners. And there is nowhere at Montreal that is as effectively narrow as some of the complexes you see at Long Beach and St. Petersburg. And no, I don't hold out much hope for the full field being "smart" on the starts and restarts. Hell, they had a crash a few years ago in the esses at Sears Point where they made such a mess of it, even with all the room they had to work with at that point on the track, that they brought out the red flag.

Just because the Canadian series runs Trois Rivieres does NOT mean that the racing is any good. It's hard enough for multi-class sportscar racing to put on a good performance there.

The only straight at Lime Rock that is long enough to actually execute a move is the pit straight. No Name Straight, and the runs to West Bend and Diving Turn are too short for these cars to actually make a move. And the accordion effect you get between those other turns just about ensures this, plus making it extremely likely that trying your luck on the brakes in those other places WILL end with you in the barriers.

The Lightning Circuit at Millville will NEED a fully new pit complex to accomodate Sprint Cup, so until that gets built, there's no way. This would probably also apply for Lime Rock. And both pit lanes are almost certainly way too short to fit 43 boxes of adequate size.

Given how slow these cars are in a lot of the turns, the first half of the lap at Road Atlanta will be follow-the-leader, because there are no braking zones that are severe enough on a straight enough path to allow these cars to pass one another. The Esses are single-file by necessity as well. And I don't know that the first right at the bottom of the course is slow enough at the end of that straight, which may not be long enough either, to be much good for outbraking.

Sebring will suffer from a lot of the same problems as Road Atlanta, and the meandering nature will make blocking absurdly easy, so if for no other reason, a race there could be as parade-like as anywhere else because of defensive driving tactics. Also, the laps at Sebring would be nearing three minutes for these cars, and elevated viewing positions are rather few and far between, which will NOT change because the airport is still active.

Laguna Seca is no tighter than Sears Point, and Sears Point often provides less-than-spectacular races on the whole.

You must be joking about Hallett and Belle Isle. Both are slow and tight. These cars cannot brake and turn like Indy Cars. Trans-Am cars, which have better power-to weight, and much better braking and acceleration, have a hard time passing at Belle Isle. Hallett would be pathetically tight and slow for Cup cars. Both tracks would be noticeably slower than Sears Point. Actually, they both could easily be slower than Martinsville, and the Cup cars might be able to get more top speed at Martinsville than they would at Hallett. You are correct that Hallett definitely lacks adequate facilities to host Sprint Cup. I think it would be somewhat inadequate for Patron GT3 Challenge races even.

BTW, Gav, Lake Afton lost its permission to host anything more than go-karts 20 years ago or so.

FoD79, I'm aware of the geography; I'm just not worrying about it right now. Frankly, I think Cup will go anywhere that makes financial sense for them to fill out their calendar. The West isn't coming out quite as rosy as they'd like, as evidenced by Fontana losing a race. They've changed Phoenix to try and spice things up to keep the crowds happy, so we'll see how that goes over the next few seasons. NASCAR has failed to take hold in the Seattle area; having rain tires would also help in that regard. And the sanction hasn't even bothered with Pikes Peak, even though that would seem like a good market near Denver, and the track is like a slightly scaled-up Richmond, so the racing ought to be decent.

I think you may grossly underestimate my knowledge about car racing, Purist.

Seriously, I think Lime Rock, Portland, Road Atlanta, and Mosport are perfect for NASCAR, as well as many others. Passing opportunities are everywhere, as I have seen in Sprint Cup testing on iRacing there. Ok, I know, you may say "ooh, that's not actually real" but I know for a fact that those cars handle pretty darn close to what they do in real life so, when doing multi-car testing, I had no problem with those tracks. Especially Lime Rock... it was a blast in a Nationwide car.

Lime Rock has a perfect demeanor for stock car racing. I think it should be added to the calendar, frankly.

If I were responsible for said calendar, I would put at least one road race in the Sprint Cup Chase, and remove all of the double-time oval races throughout the season, and add Iowa Speedway to one as well. Anyone disagree? I don't understand why they don't run there in Sprint Cup. Also, Gateway was awesome, as well as the Milwaukee Mile. Who would like Milwaukee. I would, I would!

Anyhow, I appreciate your feedback, everybody, but I think some of you are just being to closed-minded about what could be, not what will most likely be.

BTW here are some links to watch...

NASCAR Mosport
NASCAR Lime Rock
NASCAR Portland

Fixed URL's.

[Matt]

You realize the reason they don't go to Milwaukee anymore is because they replaced it with Road America, right?

Also, Lime Rock is nothing like real life Lime Rock anymore.

Hosting a big time stockcar race there would be a logistics nightmare from a fans point of view.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Gearhead Gav

Seriously, I think Lime Rock, Portland, Road Atlanta, and Mosport are perfect for NASCAR, as well as many others. Passing opportunities are everywhere, as I have seen in Sprint Cup testing on iRacing there. Ok, I know, you may say "ooh, that's not actually real" but I know for a fact that those cars handle pretty darn close to what they do in real life so, when doing multi-car testing, I had no problem with those tracks. Especially Lime Rock... it was a blast in a Nationwide car.

All great tracks for ANY type of racing. NASCAR ran two Busch Series races at Road ATL back in the 80s, won by Darrell Waltrip and Morgan Sheppard.

Originally Posted by Purist

Given how slow these cars are in a lot of the turns, the first half of the lap at Road Atlanta will be follow-the-leader, because there are no braking zones that are severe enough on a straight enough path to allow these cars to pass one another. The Esses are single-file by necessity as well. And I don't know that the first right at the bottom of the course is slow enough at the end of that straight, which may not be long enough either, to be much good for outbraking.

Yes, esses single file but there are opportunities of passing into 1 and 3; especially 1, depending on how you get off 12. Turn 6 (first right at the bottom of the course) would provide some passing and depending on how you get through 6, possible to get passed someone before 7. It would surely be a better show than the chopped up Sonoma track they race on now.

Originally Posted by Gearhead Gav

Lime Rock has a perfect demeanor for stock car racing. I think it should be added to the calendar, frankly.

Would be fantastic on the old layout, which is still possible, I think....

If I were responsible for said calendar, I would put at least one road race in the Sprint Cup Chase, and remove all of the double-time oval races throughout the season, and add Iowa Speedway to one as well. Anyone disagree? I don't understand why they don't run there in Sprint Cup. Also, Gateway was awesome, as well as the Milwaukee Mile. Who would like Milwaukee. I would, I would!

I would agree and most other on tenths tend to agree that one road course race should be in the Chase, but I doubt NASCAR will do that. There are enough drivers and teams that go to road races, just hoping to get out of the race without a DNF and others that dump a driver for the weekend in lieu of the specialist. Most of those aren't really chase contenders, however.

Perhaps Iowa just isn't ready now, but I think they will eventually get their date. The disaster at Kentucky Speedway last year tells me that it takes a lot of prep work these days to build a track to host a Cup race. Most of the tracks on the schedule have been hosting events for decades, with the exception of a few.

Anyhow, I appreciate your feedback, everybody, but I think some of you are just being to closed-minded about what could be, not what will most likely be.

I think we are keeping it real, putting out our opinions on where the Cup series will either go or not go and not basing our comments on a pipe dream NASCAR schedule. And close minded and NASCAR go hand in hand, IMHO.


And am I the only that likes the short course at the Glen for the stockcars. I would think that the boot section would be a bore for stockcars, and love the addition of long straight; it is simple and fast, kinda like me.

[Purist]

FoD79, I would agree that I think the short course at Watkins Glen would probably be better for the actual racing in Sprint Cup or Nationwide.

Gav, even in the most realistic simulators, the fact remains that you can start over if you blow it. The fact that you can't do that in real life is going to lead the real drivers to avoid many theoretical passing opportunities out of practical necessity to preserve their equipment and their position in the race.

Collecting information specifically about tracks, and doing my own analysis on what it means, is nothing new to me; I've been doing it on my own time for over a decade, and posting about tracks on these forums for several years now. I certainly do NOT set out to be closed-minded, but rather, I try to let my observations inform my stances. Also, I'd rather be pleasantly surprised by being somewhat conservative in my initial conclusions, than be overly optimistic and be disappointed in the results.

A note on Lime Rock, I do remember watching a Busch North Series race (I think that was the division) on that course. It was fun seeing them go around the course, and especially seeing them pop up over the rise, since they didn't use any chicane. However, I don't recall being blown away by how much overtaking there was in the race.

I'll have to see if I can find any footage of those Busch Grand National races from Road Atlanta.

BTW, I have said that I would look favorably upon Cup races at Road America, Montreal, Portland, Mexico City, and possibly Austin. So, I'm hardly against all the options out there.

[andy97]

Silverstone!?

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Simple, Montreal and Road America, both have had massive crowds for their Nationwide weekends. Mosport another possibility, but please no Lime Rock or Barber. Lime Rock with the chicanes has been dull as ditchwater for both ALMS and Grand Am with the exception of the 2008 and 2010 P2 battles. Barber Grand Am has good crowds but very boring racing. Also, add a race at Iowa for more short tracks.

[Paradise City]

Second last race of the chase have it up in Montreal. It would keep the Canadian market grinning from ear-to-ear, it would give the chase a bit of added end-of-season spice with the Montreal venue given to a festival atmosphere.

One minor decision from Cup bosses would give the series a positive charge of electricity. Of course when asked the Cup spokesman more or less burst out laughing at the idea of a Cup race in Austin, Road America or Montreal. So, no, I don't fancy our chances at there being any imagination in this respect.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Sprint Cup needs short tracks more than road courses. I'd like to see Iowa added to the Cup schedule before another road course.

Agree with you on this, short tracks are great because they produce some of the best racing in the world, are hard on the drivers, and unlike road courses you still get the NASCAR style "stadium feel" while spectating as you can see the entire circuit from row 10 up. I'm more of a road racing fan, but I will say attending an oval race (NASCAR or Indycar) is a much better experience than most road courses.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Purist

I'll have to see if I can find any footage of those Busch Grand National races from Road Atlanta.

I am pretty sure it was the Busch/NW/Sportsman series, but it obviously would've been prior to the reconfiguration where "gravity cavity" was still at the end of the backstretch.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Second last race of the chase have it up in Montreal. It would keep the Canadian market grinning from ear-to-ear, it would give the chase a bit of added end-of-season spice with the Montreal venue given to a festival atmosphere.

One minor decision from Cup bosses would give the series a positive charge of electricity. Of course when asked the Cup spokesman more or less burst out laughing at the idea of a Cup race in Austin, Road America or Montreal. So, no, I don't fancy our chances at there being any imagination in this respect.

Montreal in November is a BAD idea.

[Purist]

Better get those studded tires ready!

As for Road Atlanta, I found this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub_xddLKFEc

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Purist

As for Road Atlanta, I found this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub_xddLKFEc

Great find! Now that is what I call a late 80s Georgia NASCAR crowd! I think I recognized some of them.

Amazing how quick that place is even for late 80s Grand National cars. Even saw a pass going into T3!

[skycafe]

Dig it! I guess that was Labonte in the Hagan #44? Those even look like stock cars.

I get a kick out of seeing the historic stock cars at HSR events. They do not poke around, and they are of course loud.

I really wish they had more of the really tight bullrings or 'odd' tracks in current Nascar, but I don't think the marketing people want that, and instead want those cookie cutter two mile tracks. Really a shame.

[Gearhead Gav]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Great find! Now that is what I call a late 80s Georgia NASCAR crowd! I think I recognized some of them.

Amazing how quick that place is even for late 80s Grand National cars. Even saw a pass going into T3!

I've seen worse at Talladega.

[sweetchuk]

I think it would make sense for NASCAR to expand driver skills to include a few more Road Courses for sure - and along with a lot of us, I'd very much like to see a Road Course in the Chase.

Unfortunately, there'd be not much point in many other drivers currently appearing other than a couple of support act drivers to Marcos Ambrose, who pretty much has road racing down to a fine art and there's no-one in the NASCAR field who can really challenge him, let alone beat him, all things being equal.

Still, Marcos won't be around forever to dominate or at least feature prominently in road races in the series, and it would be a good way of slowly blending the old with the new (Ovals & Road Tracks) as a viable ongoing and nicely mixed yearly schedule. I'm pretty sure most drivers would enjoy more exposure, thus more chances to increase their skill levels in road racing.

[formerf1champ]

TBH, FWIW, purely as a general motorsport fan, Nascar on road courses isn't Sprint Cup racing and I wouldn't like to see an increase in allocation. A few token races are ok, but nothing more than that. I would be interested in a separate "road only" series, not necessarily exclusive to North America. It would be "interesting" to see how they'd go around Phillip Island.

[Purist]

Of course, with the regular schedule so crammed, a road only series simply can't work. You'd get the B-drivers that don't get the attention anyway. The A-drivers would be running in the Sprint Cup races, and that's it.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by sweetchuk

I think it would make sense for NASCAR to expand driver skills to include a few more Road Courses for sure - and along with a lot of us, I'd very much like to see a Road Course in the Chase.

Unfortunately, there'd be not much point in many other drivers currently appearing other than a couple of support act drivers to Marcos Ambrose, who pretty much has road racing down to a fine art and there's no-one in the NASCAR field who can really challenge him, let alone beat him, all things being equal.

Still, Marcos won't be around forever to dominate or at least feature prominently in road races in the series, and it would be a good way of slowly blending the old with the new (Ovals & Road Tracks) as a viable ongoing and nicely mixed yearly schedule. I'm pretty sure most drivers would enjoy more exposure, thus more chances to increase their skill levels in road racing.

No he difinitely will not be dominating anything.

I am glad he got a win though.

[Dutton]

I'd happily see more road courses, but the fact is it is a distinct minority (as far as I can tell) of the NASCAR audience which feels this way. With this in mind, I think it is only viable and realistic to talk about adding one more road course (and it should be added to the chase - without one in the chase, it just isn't representative of the season as a whole).

I definitely don't agree with the thread-creation proposal of half the schedule being road courses. That would be an excellent way to destroy NASCAR, in my view.

Replacing a bunch of the double-date 1.5 milers with short tracks, on the other hand. Now THAT would be an excellent idea.

[broadrun96]

Given the way some of the guys I knew back in Va reacted to either road course, not even ignoring but actively avoiding those weekends and no race pools, even adding one extra road course would be a step to collapsing the series. Or at least losing a large portion of the 'old/classic' fans, course some of those guys had their own hated and thus skipped mile-and-half tracks on the schedule.

[Purist]

Funny thing is, road racing is nothing new to NASCAR. It's been a limited part, but it's been there all along, at least since 1954. Hell, they used to run twice a year at Riverside.

I wouldn't replace all of those second dates with short tracks, but rather a mix of places, like North Wilkesboro, Pikes Peak, and Gateway (or something like that).

The "old-timers" are never going to be exactly happy with the calendar again anyway; it used to be at least half short tracks (mostly in the Southeast and some in the Midwest), and they ran 50-65 Grand National Division races a year.