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17 Jan 2012, 05:01 (Ref:3012674) | #76 | ||
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17 Jan 2012, 11:12 (Ref:3012776) | #77 | ||
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Just had a quick look into the 1990 DTM yearbook and it states that the weight of the Bemani Supra was 1050kg, with the regulations allowing it to be as light as 1040kg. Power is said to be at 330 bhp.
It also looks like there was a second Bemani car in the 1990 Nürburgring-Nordschleife round driven by Toni Seiler. He ran #26 while Philipp Müller used #25. But Seiler had a DNS at his one and only attemp. He posted a time that was almost 40 seconds slower than his teammate and actually would have qualified as 29th and last (no 107% rule back then). There might be at least 2 ways to explain his DNF then: 1. He trashed his car during the qualifying beyond repair, or 2. he actually shared one car with Müller which is somewhat unlikely. About the 1989 DTM cars: The Bemani run car for Müller used #50 And the Bloemer run Supra used #52 for Reinhard Schall and #64 for Gerhard Müller in his one-off. I somehow think that the Bloemer car was one of the old RAS Bastos/FINA cars, as the Bloemer car had a rear wing which the Bemani team didn't use untill 1990. My theory of different rollcage colours (Bemani=red - Bloemer=white) didn't really turned out to be helpful, as the early ETCC bemani cars also had white cages. |
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17 Jan 2012, 12:29 (Ref:3012818) | #78 | ||
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If you look at pics of the RAS/Bastos cars at Spa in '87, where they ran one of each, the turbo #14 has a rear wing http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-08-02-014.jpg while the 3.0i, #15 doesn't http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-08-02-015.jpg |
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17 Jan 2012, 18:08 (Ref:3012948) | #79 | ||
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It would make sense that the rearwing was originally only homologated on the Turbo model, but looking at the 2 RAS FINA cars in the 24h Spa race in 1988, both were the 3.0i non-turbocharged version and had the rear wing.
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-029.jpg http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-030.jpg and in 1988 the japanese works cars obviously had yet another homologation version. This time the rear wing ends were connected to the main body, also the front bumper had a a small "bridge" covering the gap to the hood and also the 3 square holes beneath it to help with cooling i guess. http://www1.odn.ne.jp/~aac76820/minolta02.jpg |
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17 Jan 2012, 19:15 (Ref:3012978) | #80 | ||
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These only seem to have been seen on the Japanese factory/TOM'S cars, and the Australian cars (which originated from Japan I think)- note John Smith's TTA car http://www.flickr.com/photos/eytl/63...57607220639240 The MIL cars in the BTCC never had it as I recall: http://tentenths.com/forum/newreply....eply&p=3012948 I'd always assumed the RAS-Fina cars at Spa in 1988 had been turbos, but both versions on the result online (Racingsportscars and Frank de Jong) list them as 3.0. Could there also have been an evolution for the 3.0 which allowed the rear wing? I can't see how RAS would have been allowed to run it (or Bemani not to run it!) otherwise...? |
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17 Jan 2012, 19:19 (Ref:3012983) | #81 | ||
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Actually at first the Bloemer car didn't had the rear wing.
The car first appeared at the 2nd round at Hockenheim, having no rearwing and a somewhat odd grey/white/red livery http://forums.lorddigital.com/Projec...oemer-Zoom.jpg The team obviously skipped the next 3 races and returned for the support race of the 24h race on the Nürburgring. Now the car had the white/red colours of Sponsor Test&Tuning and the mentioned rearwing. http://www.tourenwagen-revival.de/in...nent&Itemid=96# They then skipped the race at the Norisring and returned for the second race of the season at Hockenheim, this time the car was driven by Gerhard Müller. http://forums.lorddigital.com/Projec...cs/Bloemer.jpg The team then skipped another race at Diepholz and Schall was back in the driving seat for the remaining 2 races at the Nürburgring and Hockenheim. The car is here shown at the Nürburgring, WITHOUT the rearwing http://www.tourenwagen-revival.de/in...nent&Itemid=96# Haven't been able to find any pictures from the final round at Hockenheim. I may have another theory on the origin of the Bloemer car. In the picture of Müller at Hockenheim, there seems to be some kind of fuel filler cap/cover on the center roof pillar. This is a feature none of the other group A supras had. But the TTE-ran rally cars featured a fuel filler cap there as seen in the picture below. http://www.rally24.com/res/img/produ...s-15900_1l.jpg So could it be that the Bloemer car was an ex-TTE rally car, which TTE sold after they sacked the supra programme in favour of the Celica? |
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17 Jan 2012, 19:55 (Ref:3013002) | #82 | ||
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http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-030.jpg These 'IMC Toyota' entries have puzzled me for a while- there were always a lot of them at Spa (if you look at the 1600 class, all the Corollas apart from the Spanish Camac car are entered by IMC!), and they include cars which can be clearly identified as run by well-known Corolla teams, such as Bob Holden's car from Australia (#133), a TOM'S car from Japan (#139), and a British Chris Hodgetts CHMS entry (#148). Were IMC something like the Belgian Toyota importer, or a club, and a lot of regular ETC Toyotas were entered under their banner at Spa for some reason? Last edited by KA; 17 Jan 2012 at 20:03. |
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17 Jan 2012, 20:18 (Ref:3013016) | #83 | ||
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TOM'S/TTA http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-23-036.jpg http://www.flickr.com/photos/eytl/63...57607220639240 RAS http://www.flickr.com/photos/richard...57627283400681 http://www.flickr.com/photos/richard...57627283400681 Bemani http://www.flickr.com/photos/richard...57627283400681 or MIL http://www.flickr.com/photos/richard...er/6050567430/ seem to have had fuel fillers/vents there |
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18 Jan 2012, 05:22 (Ref:3013196) | #84 | ||
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87 TOMs supra with 1 peace rear wing: http://cjsupra.kendra.com/graphics/M...e/Tom87A-L.jpg 89 TOMS supra with 3 peace rear wing: http://cjsupra.kendra.com/graphics/M...e/Tom89A-L.jpg What KA is saying about Rear Wing delete for N/A due to homologation makes sense , unfortunately I have only the Turbo homologation book and can't confirm for sure. Are we sure that the two IMC/RAS Supras in SPA'88 were N/A? On most web site it says that the two RAS Supras entered in 1987 were also N/A and that is not correct... |
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18 Jan 2012, 05:26 (Ref:3013197) | #85 | ||
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18 Jan 2012, 05:38 (Ref:3013199) | #86 | ||
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http://forums.lorddigital.com/Projec...E%20SUPRAS.jpg |
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18 Jan 2012, 10:43 (Ref:3013325) | #87 | |||
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I'm not as sure about the Japanese cars though as the factory and TOM's cars would be out racing before anyone elses! |
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18 Jan 2012, 12:43 (Ref:3013388) | #88 | ||
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RAS didn't debut until some way into the season, although their first couple of appearances ended as DNQs They appear to have started with the 'atmo' version until the turbo was ready. They may have had one of each at Spa (the entry list in the programme doesn't distinguish), before downsizing to a single car entry for the TT- the entry list in the TT programme clearly describes this as a Supra Turbo of 4136cc (in other words 2954cc x 1.4 turbo equivalency factor). A Bemani entered 3.0i is also on the list, but didn't appear. It did turn up for the Nogaro ETC round a week later though, and the Japanese TOM'S cars appeared at Fuji As far as I can tell, based on the race results listed on Frank de Jong's site, the 1987 Supra entries were: 7 June, Zolder ETC: #14 Micangeli/Calderari (RAS Sport, 3.0i)- DNQ #15 Heyer/Joossen (RAS Sport, 3.0i)- DNQ 12 July, Nurburgring WTC: #14 Micangeli/Calderari (RAS Sport, 3.0i)- DNQ #15 Heyer/Joossen (RAS Sport, 3.0i)- DNQ #25? Muller/Zeller (Bemani, 3.0i)- DNQ (all three cars were on the entry list for Brno, but I don't think any of them appeared) http://www.racingsportscars.com/cove...987-08-16e.jpg 1-2 Aug, Spa WTC #14 Joosen/Heyer/Jelinski (RAS Sport, Turbo)- DNF #15 Olofsson/Thiebault/Bachelart (RAS Sport, 3.0i)- DNF (Maurizio Micangeli & Enzo Calderari had jumped ship by then- Calderari appearing in various M3s for the rest of the European WTCC rounds) 6 Sept, Silverstone TT #14 Heyer/Joossen (RAS Sport, Turbo)- DNF (#25 for Muller & Zeller on the entry list, but a no-show) 13 Sept, Nogaro ETC #14? Heyer/Joossen (RAS Sport, Turbo)- DNF #25? Zeller/Muller (Bemani, 3.0i)- 6th 15 Nov, Fuji WTC #36, Elgh/Baldi (TOM'S/Minolta, Turbo)- DNF #37, Lees/Hoshino (TOM'S/Minolta, Turbo)- 9th The Fuji WTC round might have been the debut for the TOM'S cars( not sure if they did any JTCC rounds before that?), but a pair then went on to Macau, for Hoshino and Alan Jones- I think both were DNFs IN 1988, Bemani's ETC entries were always 'atmo', but I had thought the Fina cars at Spa were Turbos, rather than the 'atmo' versions listed on both websites. I'd have to dig out the Autosport reports to be sure though... Last edited by KA; 18 Jan 2012 at 12:57. |
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18 Jan 2012, 14:40 (Ref:3013432) | #89 | ||
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So there were Turbo's at the TT then? Crikey, I didn't know that and I was there!!
Wonder what happened to all my programmes!! |
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18 Jan 2012, 15:51 (Ref:3013503) | #90 | ||
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http://forums.lorddigital.com/Projec...OOK/img001.jpg That all explains the late sesson appearance of the Turbo version i. I actually have an interview with Hans Heyer where he explains the absolute need for the turbo ,he says "<Atmo RAS Sports Supra> is 65 Kilo under the Limit" (RAS/Bastos Supra was quited to be 1100 Kilo(s)). ,he also says that further weight reduction will be very very dificult becouse the HardTop chassies is not too different than the Targe version (HEAVY). The interview ends where Hayers Prediction "We Will Win ONLY WHEN WE GET THE BOOST". Many years later I learned that above Hayers statement for the boost was wrong (I owned many MA70 Supras ,including 3 evolutions of my track cars). Boost could not save the 7M engine ... an engine that was basically junk when it comes to motorporst for many reasons the main one beign the uber long stroke. RAS did their best in using the Turbo version ,but failed. Toyota Factory Teams also had a super hard time finding a way to get the Turbo engine to be reliable and to make the horsepower needed to be competitive. Toyota had to produce in 1988 500 cars called "Turbo A" to get extension to the original homologation for despertly needed head improvements ,but even after that they kept suffering engine failures when the turbo pressure was boosted up ,a good example is BHG in Toyota Racing Tom's in 1989 SPA: http://wsrp.ic.cz/nonchamp1989.html Toyota Finally resolved their engine issues with the introduction of the 2.0Turbo (1G-GEU) and Yamaha 2.5 twin turbo engine (in Supra MA70 1990 with engine code 1JZ-GTE) ,unfortunately it was late too late for the Group A - what a waste of otherwise excellent chassis. |
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19 Jan 2012, 10:27 (Ref:3014019) | #91 | ||
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http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jong/Pages/part5.html The Supra turbo, treated as a 4.1 litre car was therefore looking at a minimum weight of 1255kg (1260 for 1988) compared to the 1035kg of the 3-litre (reduced to 1020 for 1988).... |
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19 Jan 2012, 13:41 (Ref:3014099) | #92 | |||
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I'm just wondering if there had been some lobbying from a manufacturer that may have been penalised under the old level or something, but then again if a cars capacity was marginal at, say, the Class A, B engine size cut off point of 3000cc, you would rather your car go up against an M3 than an RS500 if it was a 'cc' thing. On the other hand, nothing could touch either of those cars in their respective classes, at least not in Europe. Just thought's for discussion as it might be relevant to the Supra!! |
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19 Jan 2012, 14:57 (Ref:3014123) | #93 | ||
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Also on the weight subject ,are we sure that the "frank_de_jong" link that you gave me has the correct displacement to minimum weight relation table? I was also always using it as 100% correct ,but now I have some doubts - the other day when I was looking for the "Debut HOMOLOGATION" of the atmo MA70 I found 350+ page FIA document that shows totally different displacement to minimum weight relation table ,see (Page 92) of the following: http://www.bps-racing.com/iso_album/...e-09-bd-ok.pdf I belive that this may be "new" Homologations book for all cars with expired Homologations ,but I'm not sure? |
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19 Jan 2012, 15:09 (Ref:3014126) | #94 | ||
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19 Jan 2012, 17:15 (Ref:3014184) | #95 | ||||
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Combine that with a rule change meaning that the turbocars had to run their standard homologated intercooler, and the 75 Turbo was out of International Group A.... It would have made more sense perhaps for the FIA to shift the class break from 2.5 to 3 litres, (IIRC the BTCC did just that?), as it would have made it possible both for Alfa to continue, and Bemani to drop down to the 'middle' class and race against the M3s as you suggest... Quote:
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http://classic2.alfisti.net/media/mo...ge/procar1.jpg |
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19 Jan 2012, 18:51 (Ref:3014220) | #96 | ||
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Looking at Franks site, apparently Volker Strycek entered a Bemani Supra in the last round of the 1988 DTM. He qualified 35th out of 46 cars but did not start the race.
This could have been an evaluation test for Bemanis 1989 DTM attemp and with a driver who knows the track, the championship and the car, as Strycek has driven the Supra on various occasions in 1988. |
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21 Jan 2012, 04:40 (Ref:3014830) | #97 | ||
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If it a hard copy could look up the listed weights for the BMW M3 Evo and Mercedes 190 E 2.3-16 ,I need the information to 1.determine if the Bemani weight of 1050KG was actual or simply the regulation minimum 2.figure out if Franks site has incorrect displacement to minimum weight relation table for the post 88 regulations. Thanks in advance. |
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21 Jan 2012, 09:28 (Ref:3014865) | #98 | |||
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Here are the weights for the 5 cars the book mentions (sadly no Kadett or Mustang and only the 2.5L 190E Evo2) Audi V8: Base weight=1220kg Regulation Weight=1220kg/1300kg/1250kg (was changed twice during the season) BMW M3 Sport Evolution: Base weight=940kg Regulation Weight=1040Kg Mercedes 190 EVO2: Base Weight=1040kg Regulation Weight=1040kg Opel Omega 3000: Base Weight=1120kg Regulation Weight=1120kg Toyota Supra 3.0i: Base Weight=1050kg Regulation Weight=1040kg what wonders me is that the Omega has the same engine capacity as the Supra, but has a lot higher regulation weight. I'd say the regulation weights on Franks site are fairly accurate, as the DTM usually had their own weight rules anyways. I'm thinking about putting up a specific DTM discussion thread (like the BTCC and ATCC ones), as there are loads of things that are a mistery to me and probably everyone else surrounding the early years of that championship. |
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21 Jan 2012, 15:05 (Ref:3015006) | #99 | ||
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Yes please feel free to start whatever threads you wish to discuss T-Man.
Last edited by chunterer; 27 Aug 2013 at 16:38. |
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29 Jan 2012, 18:00 (Ref:3018569) | #100 | ||
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I agree that Franks site is probably fairly accurate I did a little more searching to confirm the source of my info and found a nice list of FIA regulations on their web site: http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations...ndixj_pdf.html Displacement to minimum weight relation table in Article 255 "Specific Regulations for Touring Cars (Group A)" is defenetly different than the 1988 table on Franks site: http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations...rticle255.html In addition to that - the table listed in Article 256 - Specific Regulations for Grand Touring Cars (Group B) appears to be the same as Franks GroupA table: http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...935__256_a.pdf Again it could be a rule change for after the 1988 season ,FIA is not so good at keeping record of their changes - they appear to be publishing them on top of the existing regulations as seen here: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/C0EE321FCFA14CA2C125784D005EC091/$FILE/255%20(11-12)-080311.pdf |
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