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Old 16 Jun 2011, 22:12 (Ref:2900605)   #126
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FordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridFordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridFordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I cannot imagine the Rockenfeller and McNish accidents with this car. I hope Don gets bored and this ends up just like the Abruzzi.
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Old 16 Jun 2011, 22:29 (Ref:2900617)   #127
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What a complete waist of good resources to make a proper racing car for Le Mans... my bet would be the GreenGT Hydrogen LMP!
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Old 16 Jun 2011, 22:56 (Ref:2900630)   #128
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I cannot imagine the Rockenfeller and McNish accidents with this car. I hope Don gets bored and this ends up just like the Abruzzi.
He was listed as marketing consultant. I don't think he is putting money in, but he seems to be allowing it to run in at least one ALMS race. I guess for the correct amount, it would be in the lead on the Sebring poster.
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Old 16 Jun 2011, 22:59 (Ref:2900633)   #129
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This is, of course, assuming it happens, but there is also evidence that it actually may, given the names behind it: Dan Gurney and his All American Racers; American Le Mans Series founder Don Panoz, who wants the DeltaWing made from his REAMS (Recycle Energy Absorbing Matrix System) composite construction material, and Duncan Dayton, whose Highcroft Racing team spearheaded Honda's successful sports-car effort, until the brand pulled the rug out from under him recently.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110616/FREE/110619902

It sounds like Don thinks he can make a couple of bucks out of the project.
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Old 16 Jun 2011, 23:02 (Ref:2900636)   #130
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What a complete waist of good resources to make a proper racing car for Le Mans... my bet would be the GreenGT Hydrogen LMP!
Agree... and it looks more like a vehicle for Drag racing...

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Old 16 Jun 2011, 23:13 (Ref:2900638)   #131
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I tell ya, having been to bike week far too many times: Harley engine, fishtail exhausts, flames painted on the sides. Oh, and go with the single front tire, make it a trike. Certified hit.

Either that, or drop VW type 1 engine and transaxle in, as those are big with trike crowd.
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 06:10 (Ref:2900719)   #132
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Struggle to see how it's going to really work as a racecar - being narrow at the front and wide at the rear to the extent the design is tends to be broadly unstable when being leaned on into corners - much better to be wide at the front and narrow at the rear from a stability point of view.

If it works, good on them but it does feel to me like something that seems OK on paper or a computer screen but lacks a lot when sitting on tyres on a tarmac race track.
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 08:30 (Ref:2900785)   #133
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I'm wondering which brave souls will agree to take on the testing and development work with this thing. A real voyage into the unknown to say the least. Not sure they will have drivers kicking down their door but I could be wrong.
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 12:10 (Ref:2900869)   #134
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Wow, with the kind of funding promoting this idea, I can see how it got this far.

The extended front wheelbase compensates for the narrowing of the front track. Firestone actually put together tires for the windtunnel by modifying existing molds to make the new tires. That worked for the tunnel apparently, but those tires were not designed as they were for side loading I don't believe. Who is going to build the tires for the delta thing?

Use of REAMS, design concepts proven only in theory, need for specialized tires (if only on the front), there are a lot of things that need to happen in a very short time here. The Aston P1 has proven thus far to be a total dud, and attention and blame seems to be focused on the severely shortened timeline to get that car running, and it used current technology pretty much across the board, just packaged in slightly different ways-and it is not working.

Certainly a car using quick recharge battery or whatever technology, or fuel cells would face many of the same daunting developmental challenges, but would seemingly be developing technology that is marketable in the industry. Heck, put REAMS use on their briefs.

No, I do not like the looks of the delta thing, but I have to admit to being fascinated. I don't want it in sportscar racing, but, I would like to see it run. There are proving grounds for that and plenty of video and print outlets for the results.
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 13:09 (Ref:2900902)   #135
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What a complete waist of good resources to make a proper racing car for Le Mans... my bet would be the GreenGT Hydrogen LMP!
I know this could be off topic but Prof. Gordon Murray design this beauty:

http://www.autoblog.it/post/33588/fo...uova-batmobile

Forget the batmobile and think this like a (56th garage) contender...
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 13:15 (Ref:2900906)   #136
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I know this could be off topic but Prof. Gordon Murray design this beauty:

http://www.autoblog.it/post/33588/fo...uova-batmobile

Forget the batmobile and think this like a (56th garage) contender...
Love it for the wheels alone, and it is a two seater!
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 13:52 (Ref:2900921)   #137
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The DW is using a 1.6T WRC/S2000 motor, Seat have used a 2.0TDI in the WTCC, this is a FWD car, so weight over the front is crucial.
How much horsepower do those engines get?
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 14:01 (Ref:2900926)   #138
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They were called "curb feelers" and I would say they were a '60's thing, although there were still cars that had them in the '70's. They were mostly used by old people who didn't know where their car ended.
My dad said they were used by the same group of people that currently are in love with spinners on their wheels.

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They worked by making a noise when the car got close to the curb, so the driver would know not to drive any closer and scratch those nice chrome hubcaps.
Yeah, I know. He wasn't fond of them, and for a motorsports fanbase like sportscar fans that has their noses so far up in the air that it decries "rednecks" pretty frequently, that's a pretty low-class thing to put on a car.

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If race drivers are truly as inept as you say they are, yes, it will be necessary to have a version of curb feelers for race drivers.
You're telling people that have driven the exact same way from 5 years old when they started racing go-karts to current to change one of the fundamental basics on how they drive a racecar by aiming their front tire for the apex of a corner. It's not ineptness, it's asking a guy that can fly an airplane and putting him in a helicopter because the idiot thinks they're the same since both are vehicles that go into the air.

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I would say a driver would knock off a rear corner before he hit another car in the sort of incidents you describe, but if you had a bunch of these racing together, you would have a lot less problems because there wouldn't be a lot of front wings to knock off. That would have been a good move for the Indy bunch, because the owners could all have zeroed-out their front wing budget. Indy's loss is our gain.
Indy's loss? The car is no horsepower and all aero. It'd've killed the racing. Every driver you ever talk to has always said the same thing if they wanted to improve the racing: "less aero, more horsepower". This car went "more aero, less horsepower".

The no horsepower bit is why I don't think it's competing well at Le Mans, the car is built for a street course where you point and shoot (although the design allows for a driver to take off the rear corner), not Le Mans, unless they're going to put in a bigger engine.

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And as bjohnsonsmith points out, this design eliminates the potential of the classic open wheel interlocked wheels accidents. If anything, this design significantly reduces accidents relative to the classic approach. Fortunately ACO is open to things that don't comply with the limitations of the current rules.
When the DeltaWing first came out, I talked about it with some other people. One guy said he talked to a former McLaren engineer and his statement was this was the dumbest racecar design he'd ever seen.

If ACO is open to things that don't comply with the limitations on current rules, let me or anyone else enter a car with any design we want. No weight limits, we can use any engine with no formulas designed to make one setup superior to all the rest (like penalizing gasoline cars to further ensure that only the Audi or Peugeot diesels can win), all that jazz. The reason they won't is because someone in that instance could come around and actually win when they're not supposed to, in this example they know the DeltaWing is a mistake that's been somewhat redesigned for a new purpose, and therefore can't compete, so it won't embarass the big companies that spend all the money, but it allows the ACO to throw out the BS statement that "they're forward thinking".

Also, if Panoz is behind this, where's this money coming from considering how broke the ALMS is?

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Old 17 Jun 2011, 14:25 (Ref:2900937)   #139
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How much horsepower do those engines get?
About 300-320.
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 14:33 (Ref:2900944)   #140
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http://murphythebear.com/blog/index....empire-cheese/

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Phallus

Reception of the Dayton/Panoz/Gurney (with the ACO as facilitator) “Delta Wing” has been as bad as the Bear has ever seen for any racing-related endeavor (puttering around as a demonstration is an “endeavor,” not a race). Much of the opinion of racing fans is unprintable in the Bear’s blog. Of course the principals (and their advisor) in this adventure have paid little attention to fans before, so why should they now?

The derision in this case is well deserved. Not only does it look bad, it’s not by any definition a sports car, even if one stretches the definition of prototype to a breaking point. It’s an IndyCar (or a copy of one), and a rejected one at that. The excuse for this nonsense is to demonstrate “new (green) technology. And what technology is that? Here’s Murphy’s summary: 1. Lighter cars use less fuel. 2. Lighter cars require less horsepower to move. 3. Ground effects tunnels are an effective aerodynamic device. Aren’t you glad we’ll have a chance to see those things demonstrated at Le Mans next year? That will be a fair trade for a well-funded ALMS, won’t it?
As for Panoz' funds to field this:

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Decline and Fall

What’s left of Panoz Auto Development and Panoz Motorsports Group? Last Week Murphy reported a layoff at Panoz Auto Development, the Panoz road car company, which according to some, will effectively end any further in-house production of either the Esperante or the Abruzzi. Few have been built over the past five years, anyway. Following on the disposal of Mosport, the Bear took a look at what’s become of the once-mighty Panoz automotive empire.

PMSG, in addition to the IMSA and the American Le Mans Series, included Elan Technologies, Elan Composites, Elan Precision Products, Elan Power Products, and Elan Van Diemen, together intended to comprise a complete and powerful race car design and build empire.
We know distribution of cars and parts was spun off to Haas in 2010. Many believe that deal had more to do with the settlement of a large personal note rather than the “synergy” represented in the press release.

Elan Van Diemen has been licensed to new principals in the UK. At the time, every Van Diemen employee in the UK, save two, was laid off by Elan.

Elan Technologies, the design company, (Indy 500 winning chassis in 2003 and 2004, IRL Championship 2003, Le Mans 24 GT2 winner in 2006, full Champcar grid in 2007) now has no aerodynamicists, no designers and but a single draftsman, plus two young entry level engineers, and one engineering manager whose qualifications is in dispute amongst the Bear’s sources. (Some say he’s one and the same with the draftsman.)

Elan Precision Products possess a handful of decade-old machines and two employees. Elan Power Products loss its last zero engineers with the departure of Chip Lewis. Relative to the rest, Elan Composites is the most successful element, but is half its 2008 size.

So all that remains are these rump companies, two tracks and IMSA/ALMS struggling to survive with one healthy class plus a few entries in a pair of spec/club classes. If there is only a single world championship round in North America in 2012, one of those tracks is in danger, as is the viability of the series and its sanctioning body if its grids remain weak.

It’s not as if there’s a lot to prop up the automotive and racing properties. After sinking $120 million into Diablo Grande, The Don and his partners saw it sold out of bankruptcy for $20 million in 2008. St. Andrews is long gone, the Georgia Chateau’s ownership is diluted, and the Sebring resort is burdened with debt. The Don’s holdings in Elan Corporation PLC, where it all started, were reduced to 57 percent in 1984 and to less than 10 percent in the mid-1990’s, and in any case has since gone under its own reorganization.

Regardless of all that, The Don is apparently off on his next great adventure: The Racing Dildo.

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Old 17 Jun 2011, 16:34 (Ref:2901004)   #141
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How much horsepower do those engines get?
As said, with a 34mm WRC restrictor about 320-330bhp, unrestricted 550+bhp, but that's in short rallycross events.

Pipo Moteurs tune Fords engines.

http://www.pipo-moteurs.com/

Last edited by JAG; 17 Jun 2011 at 16:52.
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 17:52 (Ref:2901053)   #142
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I still can't help but think that NONE of what this car proposes is new?
They are proposing to run P2 times using half the power and fuel. That's not innovative?

I think what they are really doing is addressing the bloat that has afflicted racing cars over the last 40 years. In a sense, that's going a long way backward, but they will go a long way backward on car dimensions while maintaining current speeds. That's innovative.
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 19:58 (Ref:2901106)   #143
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Please make this nightmare go away.
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 20:30 (Ref:2901120)   #144
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I can't quite work out whether people care whether the DW races or not, or if this is just another piece of the political game that is bogging down US road racing.
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 20:46 (Ref:2901123)   #145
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I can't quite work out whether people care whether the DW races or not, or if this is just another piece of the political game that is bogging down US road racing.
Perhaps for some it is, but I really don't see what the point of this thing is. I agree with the stuffed bear on this one. The goals of this program could have been achieved in more conventional ways. I also don't see the road relevance of this thing. Anyway, it just seems like the Sausagemobile people were desperate to get this thing racing somewhere, Don was looking for a paycheck, and thus strings were pulled to get this thing to Le Mans.
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 21:20 (Ref:2901137)   #146
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As an oval only racer I could see something special and cool here but outside of that, it deserves to be melted - following all the stated arguments. Cheers fellas
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 21:35 (Ref:2901147)   #147
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Hence, AAR apparently being lined up to build it, which also is a marketing ploy as I don't think they were mentioned in the indycar choice, but I didn't follow so don't know.

The indycar thing would have involved what, 15 or so of these, so potential money maker which would seem to justify the hoopla going on now with electronic billboards in Time's Square and being rushed out to all racing and auto related bloggy type things, as well as regular media.

I am going to deduce that building just one of these isn't the plan, but step one in replacing something like FLM or some stand alone series?
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Old 18 Jun 2011, 15:59 (Ref:2901473)   #148
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The indycar thing would have involved what, 15 or so of these, so potential money maker which would seem to justify the hoopla going on now with electronic billboards in Time's Square and being rushed out to all racing and auto related bloggy type things, as well as regular media.
Closer to 30. Current IRL grids are actually pretty healthy.

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I am going to deduce that building just one of these isn't the plan, but step one in replacing something like FLM or some stand alone series?
Panoz spent nearly 10+ million on developing the new abruzzi so that it could run a parade lap at Petit, run 20 minutes at Sebring, and then be canceled. What makes you think that this will be anything more than a hyped up car that runs an hour at le mans and then disappears? Delta wing and their crew put some money into coming up with this thing, they're gonna find somewhere to run it at least once.
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Old 18 Jun 2011, 16:09 (Ref:2901476)   #149
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Closer to 30. Current IRL grids are actually pretty healthy.



Panoz spent nearly 10+ million on developing the new abruzzi so that it could run a parade lap at Petit, run 20 minutes at Sebring, and then be canceled. What makes you think that this will be anything more than a hyped up car that runs an hour at le mans and then disappears? Delta wing and their crew put some money into coming up with this thing, they're gonna find somewhere to run it at least once.
Exactly, after the Abruzzi disaster (who the hell other than Don would be funding this phallus?) Im not sure why people are confident the Delta Wing will actually happen, much less last for a long period of time.
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Old 19 Jun 2011, 03:03 (Ref:2901690)   #150
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Panoz spent nearly 10+ million on developing the new abruzzi so that it could run a parade lap at Petit, run 20 minutes at Sebring, and then be canceled. What makes you think that this will be anything more than a hyped up car that runs an hour at le mans and then disappears? Delta wing and their crew put some money into coming up with this thing, they're gonna find somewhere to run it at least once.
The abruzzi is/was a perfect example of excess ego, the road version not able to be used on the roads most anywhere apparently. Oddly, maybe commitment to the abruzzi is the first step in qualifying to be involved in fronting this delta thing. You have to do 'snake oil' before 'new and improved snake oil.'

This delta thing seems like a flim flam artist's training project, I don't see what the purpose is at all, nor why any financial commitment has been made. At this point I am sure it is not that much. What bothers me is it seems it is the 56th garage entry, taking away the possibility from other projects that would have much more merit. Also, I really hope this thing does not harm the good name of Dan Gurney, who has a great history as a driver, constructor and entrant. I would hate to see him get mucked by this ridiculous thing, he deserves a lot better!
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