Should Diesel LMP1s Receive Performance Restrictions?

[sportscanyltics]

We have another poll going on Ten-Tenths that asks which performance restrictions the diesel LMP1s should receive; but we don't have a poll asking whether or not you think diesels should be restricted at all. In short, is the performance balance between the diesels and petrols correct?

If you think diesels should be restricted, vote "yes". If you think things are fine as they stand, vote "no".

[Adam43]

This thread has replaced the previous diesel thread which had served us well for the last eleven months. Doesn't time fly?

This will give us a chance to review our opinions and also vote again, albeit with a simpler question.

There is not universal agreement here, just as Henri or Wolfgang!

[chewymonster]

Nope, not until there is something to compare against.

[Purist]

In the meantime, we may well be losing potential entries due to inaction, which could hurt in the long run. Privateers know the factories are probably going to win, but if they don't see the playing field as being reasonably level, and thus don't feel they have a prayer, even in the case of a factory screw-up, why should they even take a look?

And how many years are we going to have to wait for a competitive, factory LMP1 program to get "conclusive" data? I'd say it will be at least three years. So, even if the ACO doesn't move, I don't see how the other series (LMS and ALMS at least) can afford to just leave things alone for that long without the grids, and the health of the series. taking a significant hit. Some teams might go down to LMP2, but those that want a shot overall may just decide to leave altogether; Dyson isn't interested in Le Mans until he has a reasonable shot at doing well overall.

Sometimes, action, even if it doesn't have the desired results, is better than nothing at all. At least the ACO could try something and be worthy of acknowledgement for making the attempt to do something. It would scertainly look better on their part if they did, and it would probably help the confidence of teams that want to see something done to see that the ACO is truly responsive.

[bernard b]

my point is : they should adjust now
and if a petrol factory team comes and prove this adjustment was not fair, then it could be adjusted again

[chewymonster]

And then you end up adjusting every single freaking race, making a joke out of a racing series.

[Spyderman]

Of course they should!

The fundamental reason we have this controversy over P2 (Manufacturer/ non-Manufacturer) versus P1 is due to the very lopsided pro-diesel rules in P1.
The P1 rules, as they stand, have ruled out the participation by manufacturers that do not produce diesel powered vehicles. (Incidentally; most sports car manufacturers traditionally do not produce diesel engine road vehicles).
If diesels want to prove that they are a viable solution to what ever problem they perceive, then they should compete under the same circumstances as gasoline powered cars. (i.e. same engine displacement , same turbo pressure, same weight, etc)
If this were the case, I would have no problem with diesel engines competing against gasoline.

[The Badger]

If Henry and Norbert say they need adjusting , then Im going with their view . I think they need adjusting .....

We will see in a few weeks what needs adjusting or not .

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Purist

In the meantime, we may well be losing potential entries due to inaction, which could hurt in the long run.

ACO wants stable rules during the complete season. They adjusted the rules after last year (based on Audis performance against Pescarolo at Le Mans and against Dyson in ALMS, both privateer teams) and they will do so again at the end of this year. To me that does not seem like inaction.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

If diesels want to prove that they are a viable solution to what ever problem they perceive, then they should compete under the same circumstances as gasoline powered cars. (i.e. same engine displacement , same turbo pressure, same weight, etc)

That is just plain stupid. Diesel engines run on a lean mixture (air-fuel ratio more than 14.7 : 1), so they need a lot more air to burn the same amount of fuel. On top of that diesel engine can not rev as high as gasoline engines. Therefore diesel engines need a lot more displacement and/or higher turbo pressure to produce the same amount of power.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

That is just plain stupid. Diesel engines run on a lean mixture (air-fuel ratio more than 14.7 : 1), so they need a lot more air to burn the same amount of fuel. On top of that diesel engine can not rev as high as gasoline engines. Therefore diesel engines need a lot more displacement and/or higher turbo pressure to produce the same amount of power.

Then they are not a valid substitute to a perceived problem.
They are only "as good as" if certain conditions are met.
Try and understand the reasoning!
What is stupid is trying to justify a very large advantage as if it were a condition necessary to compete.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Then they are not a valid substitute to a perceived problem.
They are only "as good as" if certain conditions are met.
Try and understand the reasoning!

I was just pointing out that diesel engines will never ever be competitive if they have the same displacement and turbo pressure as gasoline engines.

However the solution is very simple. Restrict fuel instead of air going into the engine.

Then of course the next problem will be hybrids

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I was just pointing out that diesel engines will never ever be competitive if they have the same displacement and turbo pressure as gasoline engines.

Precisely! Just as gasoline engines (under the current limitations) will not be competitive if the current displacement,turbo pressures and fuel flow for the diesel engines are maintained.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

However the solution is very simple. Restrict fuel instead of air going into the engine.

What ever it takes!

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Then of course the next problem will be hybrids

Let's cross one bridge at a time. (any French car manufacturers producing hybrids?)

[SebringMG]

You don't seem to understand the basic technology of the diesel engine!! They do not operate to the same characteristics as a petrol hence cannot run same displacement etc.....

The air restrictor is a fundamentally fair system, unfort to this point the ACO have got it 'slightly' wrong and it is not fair and it is in fact biased towards the diesels.

Moving back to the fuel formula would result in a similar situation unfort except it would be N/a vs turbos - seem to remember porsche always having trouble with the fuel quotas while jag could run for faster for longer!!!

There will always be an imbalance between various car types unfort hammering the diesels back to the level of the privateer is NOT the answer. Yes they need to be restricted just not by as much as some people think they should be. After all the diesels are factories they WILL be faster than a privateer - to think that a porsche P1 would not run rings around Henri is just rediculous, in fact on any track other than LM the p2 porsche would probably kick the ass of any other P1 car around except maybe the Zytek and at LM.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

You don't seem to understand the basic technology of the diesel engine!! They do not operate to the same characteristics as a petrol hence cannot run same displacement etc.....

Hmm.... That is not really a hard concept to grasp!
Judging from some of the posts from the pro-diesel brigade, you'd think that diesels are the next best thing to sliced bread!
They are not!
They are very effective under special conditions, and those conditions have been created by the ACO. (The reasons why is another whole story!)
(BTW - I own a diesel)

Originally Posted by SebringMG

The air restrictor is a fundamentally fair system, unfort to this point the ACO have got it 'slightly' wrong and it is not fair and it is in fact biased towards the diesels.

That's all we non-diesel folk are trying to say!

I'm not convinced on the "slight" part of your statement. It sounds suspiciously like trying to set us up for another of the ACO’s staggering performance regulating decisions. (i.e the further reduction of the diesel fuel tank by 0,5 liters )

Originally Posted by SebringMG

Moving back to the fuel formula would result in a similar situation unfort except it would be N/a vs turbos - seem to remember porsche always having trouble with the fuel quotas while jag could run for faster for longer!!!

There’s nothing like using the opportunity presented by a good discussion to rag on Porsche Eh?

Originally Posted by SebringMG

There will always be an imbalance between various car types unfort hammering the diesels back to the level of the privateer is NOT the answer. Yes they need to be restricted just not by as much as some people think they should be.

That is true if we all belong to the Society of Prevention of Cruelty to Diesels!

[WouterM]

I also think that the rules now favour diesel engines, but that's the ACO's fault. Slowing the diesel cars down drastically now would be very unfair for Audi and Peugeot as they are being punished for a job well done. It would also send a very worrying signal to manufacturers contemplating an entry into the sport. They could spend a fortune on developing a car to comply with a set of rules that can be changed drastically to slow them down. It is also less of a problem right now as we have two teams dicing it out. If it were only Audi, there would have been more of a case for drastic measures.

Diesel engined cars should be slowed down, but only in small steps.

[The Badger]

The rules need to be addressed as soon as possible and kept to that rule for awhile . The trouble with changeing rules at will , is it creates uncertainty and no manufacturer will build a new can when they cant be certain of the rules .

The ACO should address this issue right after Le Mans , sit around a table with Herr Pescarolo , Singer , Ulrich and others and beat out new rules so as to give potential manufacturers a base for next year .

[canam]

Originally Posted by WouterM

Diesel engined cars should be slowed down, but only in small steps.

What does that mean? Once a year? Twice a year? Every race?

Something dramatic needs to be done and quickly...and you cannot put the onus (cost) of the changes to the privateers. Those costs should be paid by the manufacturers (who have budgets that totally dwarf a privateer effort by between a factor of 10 and 15 times).

One simple thing that can be done is to allow petrol cars to run to a lighter weight. Most of the new LMP1 cars have to be ballasted to get to the minimum weight (I have heard as much as 100kgs). Why not allow the petrol-engined cars to run at 840kg. There would probably be costs savings as the wear and tear on parts would be less. In performance terms, this would allow for better acceleration (to offset partially the massive torque benefit of the diesel) and improve braking distances. This woul be a cheap solution in favour of the privateer petrol-engined runner.

I firmly believe that too much is being made of this 'manufacturer vs privateer' test requirement. Running at reduced weight, the Creation and Zytek Hybrids were able to run with the R10s at Laguna and PLM--but they were given a weight break. Compared to Audi and the Accura gang, they are privateers.

I don't think we need to wait. Get the minimum P1 weight to 840kg for petrol cars and I think many things will balance out.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Precisely! Just as gasoline engines (under the current limitations) will not be competitive if the current displacement,turbo pressures and fuel flow for the diesel engines are maintained.

I am not pro diesel. I just wanted to point out that your solution (same displacement and boost for petrol and diesel) is utterly ridiculous.

I am convinced that ACO will reduce the restrictor size for diesel at the end of this year, perhaps in combination with a lower weight for petrol cars.

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Let's cross one bridge at a time. (any French car manufacturers producing hybrids?)

Peugeot is working on hybride diesel cars

[SebringMG]

I think we will just have to accept that LM this year will be a diesel whitewash (or should be a sooty blackwash ?) - the ACO will have data from the race and from a number of LMS races to be able to suitably retard performance. When they announce this change will be the key, just after the race or at the end of the year ? My vote would be the end of the year!!

I would agree with gwyllion that a restrictor decrease for the diesels and weight break for the petrols is the answer. Probably to 875/890 though - 840 is a bit too low.

Remember the diesels are long wheelbase with pants weight distribution so on any short windy track they will suffer big time for their pro-LM bias

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

I think we will just have to accept that LM this year will be a diesel whitewash (or should be a sooty blackwash ?) - the ACO will have data from the race and from a number of LMS races to be able to suitably retard performance. When they announce this change will be the key, just after the race or at the end of the year ? My vote would be the end of the year!!

Last year ACO updated their rules October 20. I expect a similar date, so the end of this year.

[AU N EGL]

No I dont think Diesels should be restricted. But I do believe the NA engines should have thier restrictions removed.

Power to weight ratios can work.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I am not pro diesel. I just wanted to point out that your solution (same displacement and boost for petrol and diesel) is utterly ridiculous.

I see that I have to be very literal: My point was that diesels can only compete with gasoline engines if certain conditions are met (thus the very favorable ACO rules)
It is unfair and indeed almost misleading to “market” the diesels victories in sports car racing to the general public without elucidating them on the kind of advantages that have been worked into the rules in order to allow them to compete on an equal basis. (Of course the ACO went overboard with the advantages)

My suggestion is only “ridiculous” if you think that diesels (and their marketing) need to be artificially stimulated through the ACO making rules that provide incentives to diesel development.

I on the other hand, have no particular desire to see diesels get a “leg up”. I don’t think that they are the “green” solution that the motor racing authorities are trying to push, and I don’t think that they are the “car of tomorrow”.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I am convinced that ACO will reduce the restrictor size for diesel at the end of this year, perhaps in combination with a lower weight for petrol cars.

Its nice to be optimistic!

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Peugeot is working on hybride diesel cars

Then we will be discussing this sooner rather than later.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

No I dont think Diesels should be restricted. But I do believe the NA engines should have thier restrictions removed.

Power to weight ratios can work.

This works for me too!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

My suggestion is only “ridiculous” if you think that diesels (and their marketing) need to be artificially stimulated through the ACO making rules that provide incentives to diesel development.

Just look at production cars: turbo diesel cars have similar power output as petrol cars with a comparable displacement. This is the market situation at the moment and this is reflected in the ACO rules: NA petrol engines can have a displacement of 6 liter and turbo diesel engines of 5.5 liter.

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I on the other hand, have no particular desire to see diesels get a “leg up”. I don’t think that they are the “green” solution that the motor racing authorities are trying to push, and I don’t think that they are the “car of tomorrow”.

In production cars a lot of people seem to appreciate that diesel cars can combine performance with fuel economy.

Regarding the preferred engine of the mid term future, I don't know whether it is more economical/ecological to produce bio ethanol than biodiesel. So it is hard to say which is the best replacement for oil.

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Then we will be discussing this sooner rather than later.

Hybrid diesels don't make a lot of sense because you can never reach the mimumum weight with extra batteries and electro engines.